TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

[Mogobs30th]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

so is running a cashier a trade? is stocking shelves a trade?

Maybe your definition of lazy is different from mine... to me, lazy is anything less than your best...

Why would you put in your best if you're not getting the same effort in reciprocation from your superiors? If I have a bunch of bossess that don't give a rats *** about my pay, my insurance, or my livelihood, why would I want to show up to work and bust my ***? You pay an individual nothing and you will get NOTHING in return. This is common sense. Minimum wage will not support even ONE individual in today's world, but it seems to be acceptable. I don't know anyone that could come to this city, go out and make $7.50 an hour, and afford JUST rent in even the worst of neighborhoods, let alone food, electricity, other basic necessities. Its just not possible with a minimum wage budget. Do you think the superiors of these minimum wage employees care? No. They don't give a ****, but they expect you to go out there and do your best everyday. BS. An HONEST days pay for an HONEST days work. You pay an individual $7-$10 an hour, and you'll get $7-$10 an hour worth of work, which from my point of view, isn't much.

And I'll tell you this, if you honestly think you're going to put in 100%, everyday, for the next 30+ years, you're sick in the head. Its not going to happen. Even employers know this. We're not drones or robots here, and even machines need a break once in a while. Ive been working in some form or another for 16 years, I can tell you honestly that I haven't put my best in everyday of those 16 years. Just doesn't happen. CEO's don't do it, board members don't do it, middle management doesn't do it, and the legs the company stands on, the workers, don't do it. We're human.

the difference is that in a non-union job if you are lazy, you can get fired more easily than if you were in a union job, and the lazy people know this...

This statement is a statement used by individuals who haven't experienced being in a union, or around one for long periods of time directly. This a statement more from the mouths of propaganda spinners. Ive heard it before, from opponents of collective bargaining agreements. Its simply not true at all. But again, this doesn't happen in trade unions. It can sometimes happen in unions like the UAW, or Teamsters, but it really depends. Ive seen lazy people get fired from the UAW. Ive seen lazy people get fired from the Teamsters. It does happen.

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

You keep assuming that my views are radical... they aren't, when I say anything less than your best, I mean just that. You're best doesn't mean working full speed 100% of the time. Your best means your best... no more no less...

as far as unions go, I've had experience with union employees... some great and some not so great, and the statement I made about it being harder to be fired has come from union employee's mouths... Navistar is a big employer here locally and three of my adjunct ME professors worked there and they comment constantly about how hard it is to fire someone who does the bare minimum everyday... I'm not talking about people clocking in and then sitting in the break room all day, or sitting on their *** at a construction site... I'm talking about the people who go there, collect better than an honest day's pay for a less than honest days work... and that attitude can be contagious in a workplace. and some unions enable that behavior

I don't have anything against union-workers as a whole... it's the union leadership that needs the reality check... If I worked for a company and some dude told me that I was going to get a 3x pay increase, full medical, dental, 401k, and paid vacation, plus any quotas or standards I'd been held to were going to be lowered, Id' sure as hell jump all over it... I'd be dumb not to... It's not the workers who I blame, they're just taking full advantage of the opportunities given them... as they should. It's the union leadership who fail to realize that the welfare of the industry who employs it's workers is important for the welfare of it's workers and I think that many have lost sight of that fact.

And regardless of how I feel about any of this involving the unions... the ONE singular thing that I really care about is that the federal government has no right to intervene and demand that a company allow a union to form, nor should they enact laws such as card-check that make it easier for the unions... If Wal-mart gave it's employees the option of stay union-free or it closes its doors what would you advise that it's employees do?


All this is exactly the same as the current state of our economy... I don't blame the people who are on welfare, or the people collecting unemployment for 2 years, or the people on food stamps and medicaid etc... It's the people who put them on those programs, and made them eligible for those programs. It's all about incentive... If I have the choice of sit on unemployment for 99 weeks or go get a job at Wal-mart making slightly less, I'm going to stay my *** on unemployment and further drain the system, but what do I care, I'm not paying into the system so what does it matter to me if I collect from it? same goes for other welfare-type programs... the more they're expanded, the more people become dependent and the more people become apathetic to big picture. They get something for nothing and those giving have to give more...

[KJZ28]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

I want to congratulate all of you guys for keeping this one of the most civil political threads of any forum I belong to, it is quite good, entertaining, and great to see all of you argue with good info from both sides.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

You keep assuming that my views are radical... they aren't, when I say anything less than your best, I mean just that. You're best doesn't mean working full speed 100% of the time. Your best means your best... no more no less...

as far as unions go, I've had experience with union employees... some great and some not so great, and the statement I made about it being harder to be fired has come from union employee's mouths... Navistar is a big employer here locally and three of my adjunct ME professors worked there and they comment constantly about how hard it is to fire someone who does the bare minimum everyday... I'm not talking about people clocking in and then sitting in the break room all day, or sitting on their *** at a construction site... I'm talking about the people who go there, collect better than an honest day's pay for a less than honest days work... and that attitude can be contagious in a workplace. and some unions enable that behavior

I don't have anything against union-workers as a whole... it's the union leadership that needs the reality check... If I worked for a company and some dude told me that I was going to get a 3x pay increase, full medical, dental, 401k, and paid vacation, plus any quotas or standards I'd been held to were going to be lowered, Id' sure as hell jump all over it... I'd be dumb not to... It's not the workers who I blame, they're just taking full advantage of the opportunities given them... as they should. It's the union leadership who fail to realize that the welfare of the industry who employs it's workers is important for the welfare of it's workers and I think that many have lost sight of that fact.

And regardless of how I feel about any of this involving the unions... the ONE singular thing that I really care about is that the federal government has no right to intervene and demand that a company allow a union to form, nor should they enact laws such as card-check that make it easier for the unions... If Wal-mart gave it's employees the option of stay union-free or it closes its doors what would you advise that it's employees do?


All this is exactly the same as the current state of our economy... I don't blame the people who are on welfare, or the people collecting unemployment for 2 years, or the people on food stamps and medicaid etc... It's the people who put them on those programs, and made them eligible for those programs. It's all about incentive... If I have the choice of sit on unemployment for 99 weeks or go get a job at Wal-mart making slightly less, I'm going to stay my *** on unemployment and further drain the system, but what do I care, I'm not paying into the system so what does it matter to me if I collect from it? same goes for other welfare-type programs... the more they're expanded, the more people become dependent and the more people become apathetic to big picture. They get something for nothing and those giving have to give more...

Well, businesses don't want their employee's "best", because "their best" can't be measured. They want solid numbers from them. Quota's, deadlines, progress reports are what employers want. And even in a union, you have these things. Ive seen some peoples "best" get them fired, because their best wasn't enough. And if people come in, do the bare minimum, and walk out with alot of money, then stop wondering why the employee isn't doing more. Dont think the employee is going to do more than what you make him do. If the bare minimum isn't enough, then raise the bare minimum.

And regardless of how I feel about any of this involving the unions... the ONE singular thing that I really care about is that the federal government has no right to intervene and demand that a company allow a union to form, nor should they enact laws such as card-check that make it easier for the unions... If Wal-mart gave it's employees the option of stay union-free or it closes its doors what would you advise that it's employees do?

REALLY?? Not for government intervention? The government shouldn't intervene from a corporation stopping an......ASSEMBLY of people?? I do believe that is in direct violation of the first amendment. Government has FULL rights to intervene when a corporation is halting, diminishing, or threatening an individuals right to assemble. Thats not even up for discussion, because Ive already WON that debate. The government can't force a union if the people don't want it, but they CAN force the company to halt their intrusions on the employees who do wish to form.

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

But the government does NOT have the right to grant special power to one assembly over another. A corporation by the same definition is an assembly. The corporation should not be federally bound to submit to any assembly of its workers. Federal law already prohibits such actions that you speak of. Maybe I should've been more clear, federal government should not intervene in the relationship between a corporations workers and owners. If ownership of a company doesn't want to employ a unionized workforce they should be allowed to do so. It's workers have every right to assemble. But the company has every right to fire that assembly. If a company has a business model. and Wal-mart's business model is to provide a large selection of products at the lowest possible cost to it's consumer, then that model simply doesn't include a union. Wal-mart provides employment to people with either no skills or no other options. If you had to be in any way talented to do the job my opinion would be totally different, but when literally anyone could do that job, there is no need for a union, other than the greed of people who want to be paid more than their labor is worth. and I know, I know, no one can live off of minimum wage... but that's why Wal-mart employees are mostly young and entry-level. There isn't a skill that Wal-mart is undervaluing. SOMEONE has to make minimum wage. If you can't live off of minimum wage, then develop a skill or educate yourself so that you can obtain employment where your labor is worth more.

Skilled positions at Wal-mart make descent money. Mechanics start at $9.50, and that's starting wage for a tire-tech. Work hard and educate yourself through training programs that they provide and you can move up toward a position where you can make a living. You can't expect to go into a position expecting to make what you're worth, because it doesn't matter to a company what YOU are worth it matters to them what you're LABOR is worth. What liberal minds don't seem to understand is that if a company keeps less of it's money, one of three things happen... the consumer pays more for it's product, the employee gets paid less, or the company employs fewer people...

The only reason companies like Wal-mart are so demonized is because they are immensely successful. And by successful, I mean immensely profitable. They have done so by operating exactly as they have. It's the same story for the capitalist system of the U.S. if capitalism wasn't so effective and successful, none of these issues of what should be done with the money that is available as a result would exist. This is why I have a hard time understanding why everyone wants to destroy the systems that have created the wealth and prosperity that exists. Because if the system wasn't as effective, there would be no wealth to spread around.

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

60 minutes did a segment a while back on American Somoa. The segment was actually about the small island's relatively large number of professional athletes, mainly in the NFL. But part of the segment highlighted the island's dwindling economy. I can't remember the numbers, but it was something like 75% of the workforce was employed by two fish canneries on the island. Most of it's workers were paid minimum wage and when minimum wage was increased, people on the island who think like you would say "great, we're all getting raises" but what actually happened was that one of the canneries laid off over half it's workforce and the other was already talking about closing and sending its catch to it's canneries in other countries. Obviously this devastated their economy, not just by the number of jobs lost, but the tax revenue from the companies were lost as well. All of your thoughts are awesome in theory, but unfortunately not in practicality. If it worked, I'd be in total agreement with you, but in the end it just doesn't.

This is why so many companies have moved their manufacturing overseas. It's not because the companies are greedy or whatever you call them, it's because they're smart and know that the goal of any company is to make money, and if you can relocate to do so more effectively, why not do it? The goal of a company is NOT to employ people, any company with that singular goal will never be successful, which is why the federal and some state and local governments with all of their bureaucracies and programs with all of the employees and pensions face massive debts and deficits

[KJZ28]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

T-Mill....excellent replies!! I agree 100% on your last 2 replies! Like you said more socialist ideals are great in theory, but can absolutely not work in the real world, and therefore lead to destruction of economies. People have to realize its not insensitive, its just reality.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

But the government does NOT have the right to grant special power to one assembly over another.

True, and I never said that.

Maybe I should've been more clear, federal government should not intervene in the relationship between a corporations workers and owners.

Tough ****. Its been law for 75 years now. May I introduce you to the National Labor Relations Act of 1935...
http://www.nlrb.gov/about_us/overvie...tions_act.aspx

This law covers BOTH sides of the aisle, both the employee and employer. It is a law that Wal-mart has REPEATEDLY broken, but with little or no consequence. This law is going to stay on the books for some time, as I cannot see anyone from either party bold enough to challenge it.

Skilled positions at Wal-mart make descent money. Mechanics start at $9.50,

$9.50, for a SKILLED position??? No thanks. Still not going to make what you need here to live. If you're making less than $11 an hour here in Chicagoland, you're in a world of hurt. I don't know where $9.50 an hour is good, barely scratch a living out of that.

It's workers have every right to assemble.

Right

But the company has every right to fire that assembly.

Wrong, not if they are firing them FOR the act of assembling. Read the NLRB.

What liberal minds don't seem to understand is that if a company keeps less of it's money, one of three things happen... the consumer pays more for it's product, the employee gets paid less, or the company employs fewer people...

And what conservatives don't understand is the payroll execs get. Its one thing to build a company from the ground up, which is why Bill Gates is never a target of my views, but the Samuel family, all of which did absolutely nothing to build the company for what it is today other than simply being born, is another story.

there is no need for a union, other than the greed of people who want to be paid more than their labor is worth.

Greed of people to want health insurance and some kind of retirement fund, even if its a ****ty 401k? You consider that more greedy than a family who did NOTHING to build a company to what it is today, but reap the benefits of it 1 million fold? Asinine, simply rediculous.

Because if the system wasn't as effective, there would be no wealth to spread around.

That would depend on where its spread around to, which for Wal-Mart, isn't in the States. Their manufacturing is done overseas......IN COMMUNIST CHINA (which BTW, has the second largest economy, and is only beaten out by the US).

Thats the funny thing I hear, is that Communism is doomed to fail, yet overseas in China, it seems to be rapidly growing at an exponential rate, while the American economy is dwindling. Could the correlation be made that the loss of our manufacturing base and the gain of China's is directly related?? Their economy had a hiccup compared to our recession. BUT NO ONE SEES THIS. You model your communist argument after Russia, while China has perfected it, and PROVEN time and time again that it works, regardless on how wrong or evil it may be. Do I condone it, not in the least, but that doesn't stop the fact that it exists.

which is why the federal and some state and local governments with all of their bureaucracies and programs with all of the employees and pensions face massive debts and deficits

You get no argument from me there. I can't see why any local or state government would offer a pension package that dwarfs that of anyone in the private sector. Hell, Im in a union and even I don't get the pension package they get. My own retirement is an annuity, paid into by the NECA of Chicagoland. I have no planned pension (although the A-cards do). I don't like how pensions are paid out, they're too much as they are now. Redefined to lower values would help everyone all around, but the state and federal government have already screwed themselves by promising such high numbers to its employees. There are alternatives to having a pension, that can pay out similar money, without breaking the governments bank.

Like you said more socialist ideals are great in theory, but can absolutely not work in the real world, and therefore lead to destruction of economies. People have to realize its not insensitive, its just reality.

Then explain China's existence as a new economic superpower, one that is slowly gaining power over the US. Im all ears. This is actually the response Im looking for now. Someone explain China's economic existence to me. They are a communist country, with communist beliefs, communist law, everything communist, yet have the 2nd strongest economy. Thats the next response I would like to see, someone explain to me how communism is doomed to failure while the existence of China remains. IM WAITING for someone to figure out this apparent loophole for me.....

[KJZ28]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

Then explain China's existence as a new economic superpower, one that is slowly gaining power over the US. Im all ears. This is actually the response Im looking for now. Someone explain China's economic existence to me. They are a communist country, with communist beliefs, communist law, everything communist, yet have the 2nd strongest economy. Thats the next response I would like to see, someone explain to me how communism is doomed to failure while the existence of China remains. IM WAITING for someone to figure out this apparent loophole for me.....

Here you go:
Say a company is looking for a manufacturing location--
China (this is the average situation so don't complain you know of a company that doesn't do this over there):
1: They have a pitiful minimum wage law--(This makes a company interested in manufacturing there)
2: They have horrible working conditions and no regard to safety in factories---(now this company is thinking, we can save money by not making things safe for the workers, less money on machines w/o safeties)
3: Workers do not get paid healthcare, benefits, etc.---(now this company is thinking wow we don't have to pay the workers some nice package like in America)
4:China doesn't care if you pollute int the water, or the air, it is one of the filthiest places on earth remember the olympics, US athletes trained with masks on outside---(now this company can save money by not making things environmentally safe)
5: China doesn't tax foreign companies a lot like America taxes its own companies, (so this allows the company to save even more)
5:China loves to undercut the world in order to bring any sort of industry to their country even if it includes being unethical)

So now this fictitious company I made up can save millions and millions by making China its location base, therefore allowing them to constantly expand their size.
Now all this money is getting pumped into China's GDP, by not taxing companies harsh it reels in other companies and makes tax off of them as well, so all this money is getting pumped into Chinas Gov't and GDP.
This money can be used to lend to retarded countries like the USA that is only able pay interest on those loans because USA borrowed too much from China which has turned into another continuous cash flow for China.

Now all the things you love, like minimum wage laws, wonderful retirement packages, health care benefits, and all these other things China barely has is the reason it has such a large GDP. Also they only have one union and they almost never strike because it is a puppet of the Chinese government, therefore work conditions don't improve.


Ues there is a reason their economy is growing, but its due to sacrifices Americans wont give up. Some I don't think we should ever give up like allowing pollution, thats horrible.

But too many Americans think they are ENTITLED to something, why? Ask the WWII generation they had less then a chunk of the poor people today. Every American needs a car, everyone need health care, everyone needs a retirement plan payed for them, everyone needs a big house, everyone needs fancy toys. NO YOU DONT! Those are all luxuries, my family saved for retirement themselves, and I will carry on that tradition, I will pay for health care myself, if I cant afford it, tough, Ill find a better job.
NO one is entitled to anything ever, get up and work for it.
DO you know if you made Health Insurance illegal Doctors would HAVE to work out a payment you could afford or they wpould have no business. Health care isn't the answer its the problem, Social Security prevents people from saving themselves, so it is also the problem.
I am just tired of people thinking the government is the solution, its the problem.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

Here you go:
Say a company is looking for a manufacturing location--
China (this is the average situation so don't complain you know of a company that doesn't do this over there):
1: They have a pitiful minimum wage law--(This makes a company interested in manufacturing there)
2: They have horrible working conditions and no regard to safety in factories---(now this company is thinking, we can save money by not making things safe for the workers, less money on machines w/o safeties)
3: Workers do not get paid healthcare, benefits, etc.---(now this company is thinking wow we don't have to pay the workers some nice package like in America)
4:China doesn't care if you pollute int the water, or the air, it is one of the filthiest places on earth remember the olympics, US athletes trained with masks on outside---(now this company can save money by not making things environmentally safe)
5: China doesn't tax foreign companies a lot like America taxes its own companies, (so this allows the company to save even more)
5:China loves to undercut the world in order to bring any sort of industry to their country even if it includes being unethical)

So now this fictitious company I made up can save millions and millions by making China its location base, therefore allowing them to constantly expand their size.
Now all this money is getting pumped into China's GDP, by not taxing companies harsh it reels in other companies and makes tax off of them as well, so all this money is getting pumped into Chinas Gov't and GDP.
This money can be used to lend to retarded countries like the USA that is only able pay interest on those loans because USA borrowed too much from China which has turned into another continuous cash flow for China.

Now all the things you love, like minimum wage laws, wonderful retirement packages, health care benefits, and all these other things China barely has is the reason it has such a large GDP. Also they only have one union and they almost never strike because it is a puppet of the Chinese government, therefore work conditions don't improve.


Ues there is a reason their economy is growing, but its due to sacrifices Americans wont give up. Some I don't think we should ever give up like allowing pollution, thats horrible.

But too many Americans think they are ENTITLED to something, why? Ask the WWII generation they had less then a chunk of the poor people today. Every American needs a car, everyone need health care, everyone needs a retirement plan payed for them, everyone needs a big house, everyone needs fancy toys. NO YOU DONT! Those are all luxuries, my family saved for retirement themselves, and I will carry on that tradition, I will pay for health care myself, if I cant afford it, tough, Ill find a better job.
NO one is entitled to anything ever, get up and work for it.
DO you know if you made Health Insurance illegal Doctors would HAVE to work out a payment you could afford or they wpould have no business. Health care isn't the answer its the problem, Social Security prevents people from saving themselves, so it is also the problem.
I am just tired of people thinking the government is the solution, its the problem.

YOU JUST SAID THAT SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK, NOW YOU SAY IT DOES??? YOU SAID IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!

Like you said more socialist ideals are great in theory, but can absolutely not work in the real world, and therefore lead to destruction of economies. People have to realize its not insensitive, its just reality.

SO WHICH IS IT??? EITHER COMMUNISM DOES WORK, OR IT DOESN'T. YOU CAN'T PROVE BOTH. I know how their economy works, I don't need a lesson in that, and it isn't what I asked. Your whole contribution to this thread is hypocritical to say the least. First you say communism doesn't work, I tell you it does, and then you solidify my argument by DISPROVING yourself. You don't need to explain to me how it works, I KNOW it works, YOU were the one that said it doesn't work. You have yet to convince me that it DOESN'T work, but did an excellent job telling me how communism DOES and CAN work.

Every American needs a car, everyone need health care, everyone needs a retirement plan payed for them, everyone needs a big house, everyone needs fancy toys. NO YOU DONT! Those are all luxuries,

I don't care who you are, healthcare on any level is not a luxury, its a necessity. To even consider it a luxury its whats disturbing.

[KJZ28]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

I don't care who you are, healthcare on any level is not a luxury, its a necessity. To even consider it a luxury its whats disturbing.

All I proved is that communism will give you a good GDP...that doesn't prove that its good.....YEAH GREAT OUR GDP IS AWESOME!! But our lives Stink!! WE live in substandard housing, in filthy conditions, we have no money to buy anything, and our waters are polluted. How does that sound like it works? The only people who live good in China are the Government officials and super dooper elite. ITs a DUMP, who cares if they have a great GDP. Communism is tyrannical and that is how it can achieve a good GDP, by screwing the citizens.

Look if there was no insurance/health care plans you would have to pay out of your pocket and Doctors would HAVE to charge less so everyone could afford to get help. So health care health insurance/health care is the problem.

EDIT: I see what you mean about my conflicting views..but remember China is not a full blown commie state it is a Capitalist Communist state, if it was full blown communism it would fail like Russia at a rapid rate. But its only a matter of time before the Chinese people get sick of the horrible living conditions and change things.

EDIT 2: Communism always leads to overbearing tyranny..China has abortion vans, if they see a pregnant woman in the street and she checks out to have already had a kid they abort the child in the van even if she wants the kid!!! Throughout history Tyranny has ALWAYS been the problem, anarchy or too loose of government has never been the big problem.
By the way I am enjoying this argument! Thank you.

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

There are plenty of laws on the books that I don't agree with, just because it's law doesn't make my view point wrong. It was once legal to own slaves, it was once law that women couldn't vote etc... that doesn't change my opinion of how it should be at all...

Time will tell on China's economy... If it weren't for the regressing U.S. economy, I don't believe that China's economy would be doing quite as well. Much of China's economy is due the de-capitalization of the U.S. economy. There are only like 3 COUNTRIES in the world who do more business with China than Wal-mart alone. and Wal-mart only goes to China for it's goods because China is able to manufacture it's products much more cheaply than any U.S. company due in part to over-regulation and in part to Labor unions. Most American consumers still prefer to buy American made products, but when you can buy a slightly inferior product for a MUCH lower price they make that sacrifice. I can't remember the year, but it was relatively recently in history that China and the U.S. had any kind of agreement regarding patents... and the laws that are in place today are written heavily in China's favor and even still are very loosely regulated and enforced. Basically U.S. companies spent the money developing the products and China (Japan is guilty of this also), takes the newly developed technology and begins producing it spending little money on development, and even less on labor.

and as far as a family owned business being passed down within the family, your reasoning just doesn't sit well with me... There are a million liberal policies that affect this that I absolutely can't stand. Most of all being the Death tax... If I choose to keep a huge pile of cash for my kids I should be able to do so without the government taking over half of it when I die. They tax the exact same money twice, once when it's earned and again when you die. If I decide to develop an estate with the goal of passing it down to my children I should be able to do so... What if I do develop a company, or by some other means create massive wealth for myself and I want to pass down my million dollar property to my children, I couldn't because it's virtually impossible unless, if I owned a business, I can pass that down to them as well.

So you're saying that my Father's wealth, or stake in a company is just as much yours as it is mine? Because that's basically what you're saying if you believe that I don't deserve that prosperity because I didn't earn it... and in most cases, plenty of sacrifice is made on the part of the person who inherits the company honing their skills until the time comes when they're ready to take over. Just because they lived a privileged life and came from a wealthy family and didn't have to scrape from poverty to become successful doesn't mean that they don't deserve what they've been given. Your view assumes that the government or those less fortunate, controls some ownership of a corporation once it's original founder no longer controls the company... that is asinine...

This idea that unless you're born into poverty that you haven't earned anything in your life is ridiculous. Sure plenty of people are given opportunities in certain companies because of their parents' success either as a part of the company or as the founder, but whether or not they've earned their position doesn't solely ride on the fact that it was their parent's or grandparent's company...


And even if I believed, or you could prove that Socialism and Communism work, I would challenge you explain who it works for... Look at China, Cuba, Venezuela and compare the standard of living of any of those countries to here... There is an elite class and a poor class... virtually no middle class to speak of and no real way to make an improvement in your life based on your own will... If you're born poor, you die poor. and what would be even less attractive to you: If you're born rich, you die rich. In free-market Capitalism, it doesn't matter what you're born into you have every opportunity to make a name for yourself. You also have every opportunity to sit on your *** and be poor. Obviously there are social factors involved, but, in a general sense, it is entirely up to you what you do with your life, not the government's or any ruling class...

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

Health insurance coverage and pensions and all other benefits only came about as a result of wage freezes imposed on companies, mainly corporations by the government. Companies who could afford to pay it's employees more, but weren't allowed to because the government said that they weren't allowed (a ridiculous notion, and one that's being thrown around in the current adminstration). So companies started using compensatory benefits to entice talented people to come work for them. If two companies are competing for talent and both have a salary cap put on them by the government, they used the benefits as a loop-hole. These benefits were never intended to be "the right of the employee." they were created to aid them in recruiting talent.

That could be a great money-saver for healthcare that will absolutely never happen... instead of mandating that employers provide health coverage, make it illegal for them to provide coverage. That way everyone would have to buy it on their own. There'd be a wide variance of coverage just like in auto insurance and there'd be more open competition... It would solve the problem of insuring the self-employed or the temporarily unemployed, and it could be like Dental insurance where if you need coverage bc of a developed condition, you can buy a discount plan and an insurance plan, the insurance plan wouldn't take effect for an alotted period of time and the discount plan would be expensive but would be worked out between the patient and the provider on an as-need basis based on available assets... plus this would free up more capital in alot of companies to either expand or pay their employees more. Because there isn't just a the cost of the coverage to factor in. There are vast administrative costs related to employer-provided coverage as well, both from the employer's side and the insurance companies side as well, and both would be eliminated... too bad change like this could never happen... lol

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

$9.50, for a SKILLED position??? No thanks. Still not going to make what you need here to live. If you're making less than $11 an hour here in Chicagoland, you're in a world of hurt. I don't know where $9.50 an hour is good, barely scratch a living out of that.

START at $9.50 it doesn't take much skill to be a tire tech, but the raises are pretty drastic once you start moving up based on the training you receive and your abilities... When I worked at Sears there were two guys I worked and went to school with who got fired from Sears and ended up getting jobs at Wal-mart and both of them were making more than me hourly and I was averaging $10.50 and that's with commission...

My Sister's father-in-law drove a truck for Wal-mart for several years and they paid very well and their benefits package was second to few... he tried for years to get hired there before finally getting a job

Plus it doesn't make much sense to say that someone in Chicago should make more just because they live in Chicago and it's expensive to live there... If a company wants to pay them more, then fine pay them more, but is someone's labor worth more in Chicago than somewhere else? Is it harder to stock groceries on a shelf in Chicago than Dayton? otherwise develop a skill and make more money, or if you don't want to do that then move to where the cost-of-living is lower and your lack of talent and/or motivation is worth relatively more. I shouldn't get paid less just because I live in Springfield, OH where the cost-of-living is like the top-ten lowest in the country, no more than someone anywhere else should get paid more... at least not by mandate of the government...

[T-Mill]

Re: TERRIBLE! cash for clunker. (remembering how stupid it was) video. (must) watch

I don't care who you are, healthcare on any level is not a luxury, its a necessity. To even consider it a luxury its whats disturbing.

This another idea of yours that I completely agree with in theory... but in practicality there are factors that unfortunately pile this into the category of a false utopia...

There are some people who would either live longer or live better if the gov't bought them health insurance, but that is true for so many other things in life... the economic factor has to be taken into account... If everyone who had HIV also had Magic Johnson's treatment, they'd all be much healthier, but everyone involved in that treatment would also be bankrupt... There are harsh realities that I don't like, but that doesn't make them untrue


I think we both agree that it'd be better to fly than to have to walk everywhere, but while I'm satisfied with having to walk, you're climbing to the top of the highest building and trying to fly... I'll stick to walking...