Prop 8 poll

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I never said that our country was a democracy, I just said that when a minority rules its tyranny and when majority rules it's democracy... and our constitution was also written to protect the majority from the RULING minority ( like the judge in question ). The constitution outlines the limits of the federal government and defines certain rights as unalienable and protects them from infringement by any government state, federal and local. Any laws not defined by the constitution are left to the states. Marriage is not defined by our constitution, which leaves the laws governing it to the states...

Everyone keeps proclaiming that marriage is not a religious issue. If that's so then it is simply a law that the states have authority over. Either that or it is a religious issue and the religious definition of marriage has precedence... either way you look at it


Could someone find where gay marriage is in the constitution, or marriage at all for that matter? I don't understand how the commerce clause can be violated, the 2nd amendment can be constantly under attack, the first amendment be under attack, but when someone's "rights" that don't even exist in the constitution people use the constitution as if they actually hold it sacred...

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

It can't be that overwhelmingly denied by the people, seeing as the poll in this very thread is fairly close, 27-21 against it. Thats just about a 55% to 45% in favor of being against it. Theres not a HUGE majority here.

An internet forum for cars isn't a very good representation of the country... The most liberal state in the country passed it, so just imagine the support for it in more conservative states.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Based on religious prejudice - no. You, I and the state have no right to make laws in this area. ALL marriage laws need to be revoked.
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You're still buying into the premise that everyone who holds the same opinion as Thor and I, are religious zealots...

I believe that the purpose of marriage is to provide a stable home for raising children. If your opinion of this differs from mine, then that's fine, but you are wrong to assume that your opinion is based on reasoning and that mine is just based on some imaginary superior being in the sky

[OneEightSeven]

Re: Prop 8 poll

and you have this backwards, when a minority rule exists it's tyranny when a majority rule exists it's democracy

Democracy has nothing to do with the majority of the population. A group of 10 men that vote amongst themselves to make decisions that affect 1,000 men still make for a democracy. Democracy is in contrast to an autocracy, which is often associated with tyrannical rule. An autocracy would be one man or a pyramid of sorts where there is some form of absolute power, hence the high likelihood of oppression.

Tyranny is unrelated to democracy and can coincide with any form of government. Tyranny is the imposition of oppressive will, such as the denial of rights to members of our society. Allowing gay marriage is not oppressing you... Not allowing gay marriage oppresses homosexuals. If gays getting married makes you feel oppressed you should reflect on your own feelings towards homosexuality and see why you feel that way.

The form of government is unrelated to this discussion. The oppression of citizens of this country is not something that is negated by the fact that there was a vote or that we live in a democracy. Oppression is oppression is oppression is oppression, no matter who sanctioned it. You need to make this clear to yourself. You're either in support of oppressing homosexual members of our society or you are against this oppression.

[FirebirdGT]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Democracy has nothing to do with the majority of the population. A group of 10 men that vote amongst themselves to make decisions that affect 1,000 men still make for a democracy. Democracy is in contrast to an autocracy, which is often associated with tyrannical rule. An autocracy would be one man or a pyramid of sorts where there is some form of absolute power, hence the high likelihood of oppression.

Tyranny is unrelated to democracy and can coincide with any form of government. Tyranny is the imposition of oppressive will, such as the denial of rights to members of our society. Allowing gay marriage is not oppressing you... Not allowing gay marriage oppresses homosexuals. If gays getting married makes you feel oppressed you should reflect on your own feelings towards homosexuality and see why you feel that way.

The form of government is unrelated to this discussion. The oppression of citizens of this country is not something that is negated by the fact that there was a vote or that we live in a democracy. Oppression is oppression is oppression is oppression, no matter who sanctioned it. You need to make this clear to yourself. You're either in support of oppressing homosexual members of our society or you are against this oppression.

X2

Very well said.
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[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Defining marriage as between one man and one woman doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. EVERYONE still has the right to marry.

and again... this is NOT a constitutional matter because marriage isn't mentioned anywhere in the constitution, which delegates the authority to the states, each of which have authority do make laws with respect to marriage.

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

AFIK there's nothing else (rights wise) denied to homosexuals outside the lines of adoption and marriage. So, you know, good luck denying them those rights for much longer. It's a losing battle. Truth is, the only "fact" against gay marriage is the fact that they're being denied that right. Everything else is the opinion. Fact > Opinion. If you're offended that two people of the same sex can be in love, tough ****. There are far worse things that offend us every day and they're all covered by the first amendment. If you have FACTS to back up why gays shouldn't marry, speak up, cuz so far I've only seen opinionated interpretations of marriage.

Think of it this way: If gay marriage were already legal in all 50 states, would you have any reason to ban it? Ask yourself that.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Democracy has nothing to do with the majority of the population. A group of 10 men that vote amongst themselves to make decisions that affect 1,000 men still make for a democracy. Democracy is in contrast to an autocracy, which is often associated with tyrannical rule. An autocracy would be one man or a pyramid of sorts where there is some form of absolute power, hence the high likelihood of oppression.

How is this not evidenced by the judge's ability to over-rule the will of the people? And you're wrong about democracy having nothing to do with the majority of the population. There are two forms of democracy: referendum and representative. The U.S. utilizes both. Mostly in the form of representative where elected officials make decisions in the interest of their constituents, and occasionally by referendum where a vote is put to the people. This case (prop 8) was an example of referendum democracy.

Tyranny is unrelated to democracy and can coincide with any form of government. Tyranny is the imposition of oppressive will, such as the denial of rights to members of our society. Allowing gay marriage is not oppressing you... Not allowing gay marriage oppresses homosexuals. If gays getting married makes you feel oppressed you should reflect on your own feelings towards homosexuality and see why you feel that way.

Tyranny is very much related to democracy. In the representative form, tyranny comes from the will of a majority of representatives becoming a ruling class, ignoring or negating the minority of representatives. In the referendum form, the fundamental characteristic of a referendum democracy is that each vote bears equal weight. and a tyranny exists when the votes or opinions of one or a few outweigh that of the majority.

The form of government is unrelated to this discussion. The oppression of citizens of this country is not something that is negated by the fact that there was a vote or that we live in a democracy. Oppression is oppression is oppression is oppression, no matter who sanctioned it. You need to make this clear to yourself. You're either in support of oppressing homosexual members of our society or you are against this oppression.

The form of government was relevant where I mentioned it. I wasn't using it as an argument for or against gay marriage, I brought it up in relation to the status of prop 8...

I have put plenty of thought into my stance on gay marriage. I've done research into every facet of the argument. I know and understand the religious, scientific, social and societal implications of the issue. I am perfectly comfortable with my decision. If I felt I was oppressing anyone, I wouldn't feel the way that I do. I have had open conversations with gay friends on the issue and they all, whether they agree with me or not (and some definitely do), they understand why I feel the way I do. This all comes back to the Utopian view of our society. There are plenty of things that are easy to say, but aren't practical if you really study the dynamics of the big picture.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

AFIK there's nothing else (rights wise) denied to homosexuals outside the lines of adoption and marriage. So, you know, good luck denying them those rights for much longer. It's a losing battle. Truth is, the only "fact" against gay marriage is the fact that they're being denied that right. Everything else is the opinion. Fact > Opinion. If you're offended that two people of the same sex can be in love, tough ****. There are far worse things that offend us every day and they're all covered by the first amendment. If you have FACTS to back up why gays shouldn't marry, speak up, cuz so far I've only seen opinionated interpretations of marriage.

Think of it this way: If gay marriage were already legal in all 50 states, would you have any reason to ban it? Ask yourself that.

If people want to be gay, then that's their business... I'm not against gays, I'm against gay marriage...

Explain in detail how defining marriage as between one man and one woman infringes on anyone's right to marry...

[KJZ28]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Except the word "marriage" is used in too many state and local laws. Civil union excludes the word "marriage" so it can be used against a couple with a civil union in court.

Listen, its not the RELIGIOUS meaning of the word that is getting the majority riled, its the LEGAL meaning. Again, the word "marriage" is used in too many civil laws, you can't replace "marriage" with civil union in every one of them.

What I say is that the government shouldn't even be able to make marriages legal and not legal, the ONLY reason they do is for taxes and money. IF I want ot get married I should just have to go through what ever way I want to go about it, such as in a Church, Synagogue, mosque, or any ceremony that I want.

[FirebirdGT]

Re: Prop 8 poll

what i say is that the government shouldn't even be able to make marriages legal and not legal, the only reason they do is for taxes and money. If i want ot get married i should just have to go through what ever way i want to go about it, such as in a church, synagogue, mosque, or any ceremony that i want.

x2

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[Mogobs30th]

Re: Prop 8 poll

What I say is that the government shouldn't even be able to make marriages legal and not legal, the ONLY reason they do is for taxes and money. IF I want ot get married I should just have to go through what ever way I want to go about it, such as in a Church, Synagogue, mosque, or any ceremony that I want.

I agree completely. If Christians are concerned about gays marrying, then take the word out of the law of the land. Call everything a "civil union". Let the Christians have their "marriage", but by law (if there must be a law due to taxes and money) call it a civil union.

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

This thread is the very definition of talking in circles. You could literally go from page 1 to 24 then back to page 1 again and it would be a perfect loop.

Marriage is a joke as it is, so let the gays have in on it. 50% divorce rate, teenagers eloping in Vegas, I rest my case. I really can't ****in believe people get so defensive about the "definition" of marriage. Blows my mind, honestly. Apparently it would be worse to change the ink on a page in a dictionary than to deny American citizens certain rights.

Blows.

My.

****ing.

Mind.

The ignorance.

That is accepted.

In

This.

Country.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Blows.

My.

****ing.

Mind.

The ignorance.

That is accepted.

In

This.

Country.

First thing you've said that I totally agree with lol

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

If you call it civil union, then you're going to have issues with it on the other end when a lawyer representing a family of a deceased gay individual wanting to take the assets from the couples living half because of them not being "married" as the legal definition implies. The lawyer will easily say that it was a "civil union", which could exclude some of the laws of what would define as a "marriage".

Not so, Civil Union can protect their legal rights as well. Just read it. Also, even if civil union didn't exist for them if they keep a living will or trust the rights or legal matter can still go to their partner.

Exactly, but its definition in legal terms is where the problem lies, NOT THE RELIGIOUS definition. Most gays could care less of the religious ramifications, its the LEGAL ramifications that are of the concern.

Why are you trying to seperate them? They are not seperate. Institution of WAS DEFINE BY RELIGION and government acted on it. Like I said, IF WE WATER DOWN THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE BY THIS SO-CALLED LEGAL MATTER THEN WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? Should we let people like Woody Allen marry his adopted minor daughter? Should we let polygamy and multiple marriage runamok? Is it OK for adults to marry blood relatives? Where do you draw the line when it comes to the definition of marriage?

It can't be that overwhelmingly denied by the people, seeing as the poll in this very thread is fairly close, 27-21 against it. Thats just about a 55% to 45% in favor of being against it. Theres not a HUGE majority here.

Actually the majority here are young people, which leans more towards a liberal view. But if we do a nationwide poll it would be much greater. When you define what marriage is majority of the people will agree to it. Waterdown that definition and there will be confusion.

BTW, our constitution was created to protect the minority from the majority. I learned this at an extremely early age. It should be common knowledge.

That is correct, but in our constitution under freedom of speech we do have the right to debate it and contest it. And not let some gay judge push his personal agenda, nor let some politicians support it in order to garner more recognition and votes.