Prop 8 poll

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

After reading those quotes of our founding fathers, who is the whiny little kid now- you, or me?

I'm not whinning, just stating the facts and defending it. Like I said this was already voted on and twice traditional marriage won in Calif. BTW there's not a state in the union that's more liberal than Calif. So it surprises me that it won.

Don't worry. My opinion of you guys will never change. This is what Freedom of Speech is all about. We can agree to disagree and remain respectable.

I never expected anyone to change their mind on this.

[GRNcamaro]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I like your style, but damn.. that was mean.

it may very well be mean but i believe in being honest. id hate for someone to lie to my face just to be nice. I also dont believe in telling other people how to live. they never bothered me so im not going out of my way to bother them.

[FirebirdGT]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I'm not whinning, just stating the facts and defending it. Like I said this was already voted on and twice traditional marriage won in Calif.

I don't see it as "stating the facts" - only your hard religious belief.

There is no such thing as "traditional marriage" - by it you mean "religious marriage" bestowed by a religious group, vs the other "civil marriage" bestowed by the state.

I don't care what rules a religious group makes regarding the performance of a "religious marriage", but to impose those same "rules" on "civil marriage" is a violation of all citizen rights.


And as for the "un-natural" part. Robins don't mate with swallows, so maybe while you're taking away the rights of one group how about reinstating the laws against interacial marriage. That was considered "un-natual" and was approved by the voters. And while we're having such a grand time "right taking" lets also outlaw marriage between people of different religions - don't want to contaminate "our" religion with people who aren't like us. God forbid a protestant marry a catholic - my grandmother didn't speak to my father for years - the shame of it all! Maybe we can sanction "honor killings" while we're at it. Might as well as some would like to make, no they already state, that christianity is the religion of the US - so then maybe we can be a theocracy like Iran, or maybe Saudia Arabia, and have the US Christian Religious Police ensuring we all are "moral".

I so firmly believe that if Jesus came back today, he certainly would NOT embrace the actions of a lot of His so called "followers".

I'm not too PO'd am I? :omg:
.

[venom3300]

Re: Prop 8 poll

And as for the "un-natural" part. Robins don't mate with swallows, so maybe while you're taking away the rights of one group how about reinstating the laws against interacial marriage.
.

robins an swallows are a different species not a different race. that would be like a person marrying a gorilla.

something more accurate would be like a black lab mating with a yellow lab and that is perfectly natural.

[enzia35]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Tie breaker! I believe that marriage is between man and woman, AND that gov't should GTFO of these things.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I don't see it as "stating the facts" - only your hard religious belief.

There is no such thing as "traditional marriage" - by it you mean "religious marriage" bestowed by a religious group, vs the other "civil marriage" bestowed by the state.

In that case call it Civil Union and not marriage. Even I recall you saying Civil Union back then when LD brought up this topic. Did you change your position now?

Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman and it has always been that way for over 5 thousand years.

I don't care what rules a religious group makes regarding the performance of a "religious marriage", but to impose those same "rules" on "civil marriage" is a violation of all citizen rights.

Again, Civil Union or Social Union should be the correct term. They can have their union.

And as for the "un-natural" part. Robins don't mate with swallows, so maybe while you're taking away the rights of one group how about reinstating the laws against interacial marriage. That was considered "un-natual" and was approved by the voters.

Why? Is interacial marriage the same as same sex marriage? Let's look at logic here and not sheer emotion. Marriage by definition according to religion is a union between a man and a woman. It is intended for pro-creation and rearing of children. With this so-called homosexual marriage that is NOT possible. With Interacial marriage that is possible. Like I said, who here is of a pure race? Nobody. Interacial marriage has been going on since the dawn of time.

BTW... yes, robins and swallows can mate just like Lions and Tigers can mate, and donkey and horses. BUT guess what. They produce hybrids that are sterile and can not reproduce. See how intelligent nature is. Now try and parallel that to homosexuals.

And while we're having such a grand time "right taking" lets also outlaw marriage between people of different religions - don't want to contaminate "our" religion with people who aren't like us. God forbid a protestant marry a catholic - my grandmother didn't speak to my father for years - the shame of it all! Maybe we can sanction "honor killings" while we're at it.

That's poor argument on your part. That's an issue between your families. My wife is Seventh Day Adventist and so is her family. Religion never divided us because we had mutual respect. BTW.. how is relevant to the fact that it is still a marriage between a man and a woman no matter which religion. All religion upholds the same definition of what marriage is.

Might as well as some would like to make, no they already state, that christianity is the religion of the US - so then maybe we can be a theocracy like Iran, or maybe Saudia Arabia, and have the US Christian Religious Police ensuring we all are "moral".

Those are Islamic Countries that is far from Christianity. Christianity gave us our morals and it is clear from the letters of the Founding Fathers. The ones that Heywood brought out were letters of Protests by Jefferson and such because of the abusive behavior of some of the clergies. But in their writings to each other they quoted God many times.

The concept of separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. Jefferson wrote that to a friend. But lawyers love using that. The Constitution protects religious right in this country and not the other way around. Founding Fathers saw to it that religion must never parish or be under persecution. Again, unrelated topic and if you guys want a thread on this I can go into detail.

I so firmly believe that if Jesus came back today, he certainly would NOT embrace the actions of a lot of His so called "followers".

I'm not too PO'd am I? :omg:
.

I agree with you. Jesus would not embrace the action of some of his followers. BUT.. he will not embrace the concept of marriage between homosexuals.

Remember this. Jesus is NOT a nice person by our definition. He is charitable to others, but he is not nice. He will tell it as it is. He doesn't go by the sign of times or what is right by our definition because we said so. Just like the prostitute who was almost stoned to death, Jesus told them let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And we know how this one ended. BUT he didn't excuse the prostitute either. He clearly told her to stop doing what she was doing and he gave her a clean start. Again, still unrelated to the topic.
---------------------
What I'm doing is defending the definition of Marriage. I am not oppose to Civil Union or Civil Contract between homosexuals. Eventhough I disagree with this behavior and yes it is a behavior and not a culture, just like people born with a predisposition to be Pedophiles, my thoughts and emotion has no say on their Civil Union. But when it comes to redefining Marriage that religion created is a huge no no on my book

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Sorry very weak argument on your part there 1-8 are all about Human PROGRESS!!! LOL

Homosexual is NOT human progress. LOL Nice try though.

Oh, so you're argument isn't that it's unnatural but that it doesn't contribute to human progress. And here I thought you cared about what was natural... Hmm why did I ever think that? I prove my point for unnatural human activities and you change your position. Smooth.

The problem is you listen too much to the liberal media, hollywood, liberal teachers that you don't know what is right and wrong anymore. Society today are always trying to redefine what should be moral and what should be immoral. I guess you base it on what everybody else is doing and what is deemed acceptable what is not. I prefer logic. And my logic tells me that man to man relationship or woman to woman is unnatural and wrong. It doesn't happen in nature at all.

Wait, I thought you didn't care that it was unnatural, only that it didn't contribute to human progress? Are you changing your position between paragraphs?

You don't SEE 2 birds of the same sex building a nest together.

Yeah, and you don't see two birds performing open heart surgery on each other. WHAT IS YOUR POINT? Ugggh. We're humans not birds, fish, seagulls, manatees.... Are you saying we should only do things that we see animals doing?! LOGIC FAIL.

Wrong!!! Wes will tell you that I've worked with troubled youths and I've seen it all. Some people are born to be pedophilia just like some people are born gay. The kids I've worked with have a pedophilia mentality and some with being gay. It's a long story, but trust me I know this well among my kids in the past. Majority of the pedophilias are gay and they are very attracted to pre-pubescense boys.

BTW.. ask the Catholic Church why they banned and fired homosexual Priests. 95% of abuse are homosexual in nature towards boys.

Biggest logic fail in this whole thread! Just because most pedophiles are homosexual (as you say) doesn't mean most homosexuals are pedophiles! Dude!!! LOGIC FAIL bigtime! I can't believe you connected pedophilia to homosexuality like that! AGAIN I ask what are you thinking when you type these things?! Because of this "argument" alone I'm not going to reply to any more of your posts! You clearly don't know what you're saying! Sorry if I'm offending you, but when you say things like this I am extremely offended on behalf of homosexuals everywhere!

BTW..don't be a jerk. I already told you that I have gay friends. I'm very much involved in bodybuilding and fitness industry. They are very much involve in this too. They know where I stand on and respect it. I have one who agrees that children should be reared by a man and a woman in a household.

And if I had a ton of black friends it wouldn't give me the right to say the N-- word left and right. Sorry, how many gay friends you have doesn't make a single lick of a difference in your credibility or stance on the subject.

Slavery was ended by the Christians in early centuries. Again another topic that doesn't merit this discussion. Open up another thread and I'll be happy to delve more into it.

Really? ENDED by CHRISTIANS? Then how did so many of our "christian" founding fathers have slaves? History fail.

Again, Religion define what marriage is and they started it. No one has the authority to change that. Especially not some perverted concept.

So why did somebody have the authority to ignore what the bible says about child abuse and slavery? (I already asked you this question about picking and choosing from the bible, but you ignored it.)

I will read your reply to this post... however I don't think it will make a bit of difference considering the blatant logical fallacies you like to employ in an attempt to prove your point. Regardless, as I already said I will not reply to you again since you've already infuriated me by insinuating that most homosexuals are pedophiles. I can't put into words how frightening it is that anyone would dare try to make that connection.

[GRNcamaro]

Re: Prop 8 poll

okay i have a questions. maybe im miss understanding somethings.

Civil union and marriage give you all the same rights and tax breaks and so one right?

marriage is historically a religious based idea right?

to my knowledge (which isn't that great) all religions condemn homosexuality.

So why would homosexuals want to get married which is a religious based idea that says hey being gay is wrong?

i mean in my head if im not misinterpreting things it almost seems like a string the pot type of mentality.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Wow, WTF? Im gone for a weekend and this thing explodes.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Oh, so you're argument isn't that it's unnatural but that it doesn't contribute to human progress. And here I thought you cared about what was natural... Hmm why did I ever think that? I prove my point for unnatural human activities and you change your position. Smooth.

I never changed position. I've been what I've been saying. The list you gave which are these:

humans do that is unnatural:
1) flying
2) going into outer space
3) brain surgery
4) artificial limbs (Do you think we should outlaw those, too? Damned cyborgs with their metal legs and plastic hips!! Let them suffer THE NATURAL way!)
5) organ transplants
6) pace makers
7) life support

...Are all human progress. It has nothing to do at all with homosexuality. Now YOU FAILED

BTW...homosexuality has been around since the Persian Culture and onto the Greek and then Romans. So this isn't new at all.

Yeah, and you don't see two birds performing open heart surgery on each other. WHAT IS YOUR POINT? Ugggh. We're humans not birds, fish, seagulls, manatees.... Are you saying we should only do things that we see animals doing?! LOGIC FAIL.

How does my logic fail when you are trying to make this into a natural thing and then indirectly call it logic. My point still stand. Two men having sex is not natural. It doesn't happen in the Animal Kingdom. You fail to see my point that 2 birds of the same sex does not build a nest together. A nomadic Lion doesn't go out and seek out a pride of male Lions. A male whale does not travel for 30,000 miles and look for other male whales to mate. Do you see my logic?

Biggest logic fail in this whole thread! Just because most pedophiles are homosexual (as you say) doesn't mean most homosexuals are pedophiles! Dude!!! LOGIC FAIL bigtime! I can't believe you connected pedophilia to homosexuality like that! AGAIN I ask what are you thinking when you type these things?! Because of this "argument" alone I'm not going to reply to any more of your posts! You clearly don't know what you're saying! Sorry if I'm offending you, but when you say things like this I am extremely offended on behalf of homosexuals everywhere!

You need to re-read my post. You are putting words into my mouth. I said the majority and I didn't say all. Some straight women are pedophiles too and they have a strong attraction to teen boys. And believe it or not many of them are teachers.

And if I had a ton of black friends it wouldn't give me the right to say the N-- word left and right. Sorry, how many gay friends you have doesn't make a single lick of a difference in your credibility or stance on the subject.

Totally pointless. Even if I do have a ton of gay friends my stance still remains the same. BTW... my friend Donny believes in civil union too and not marriage. But you don't care about that, because he doesn't speak out for the whole gay community.

Really? ENDED by CHRISTIANS? Then how did so many of our "christian" founding fathers have slaves? History fail.

Not related at all to the topic, but I will tell you this: Why do we have illegal aliens here doing our dirty work for dirt cheap? Who knows a hundred years from now this would be a shameful thing too.

So why did somebody have the authority to ignore what the bible says about child abuse and slavery? (I already asked you this question about picking and choosing from the bible, but you ignored it.)

Totally unrelated to this discussion. You need to go back in time and ask the founding fathers that same question.

I will read your reply to this post... however I don't think it will make a bit of difference considering the blatant logical fallacies you like to employ in an attempt to prove your point. Regardless, as I already said I will not reply to you again since you've already infuriated me by insinuating that most homosexuals are pedophiles. I can't put into words how frightening it is that anyone would dare try to make that connection.

I'm not trying to change your mind, because I know it's not possible. What I am trying to do is to defend the word, "Marriage". That's all I'm doing. Everything else you and I brought up that are indirectly to this are irrelevant to this discussion.

Marriage is founded by religion and ALL religion practice marriage to be a sacred covenant between man and woman. ALL religion, not just Christianity, but Islam, Hindu, Bubahism, and Judiasm The purpose of marriage is not to become one but to procreate and rear children and in order to continue the growth and heritage of their race.

This is NOT possible with two homosexual individuals. I'm for Civil or Social Union for them, but for them to call this marriage is a NO, NO I don't care what Kathy Griffin said last night at Larry King Live, 63% of the Americans do not accept this union between gays as marriage. And no it's not just the Christians that are saying this, but many athiest, agnostics, and scientists are saying this. California the most liberal state in the Union voted twice to preserve marriage between a man and a woman. Just that the minority can't take no for an answer and the liberal media, ACLU, Celebrities, and Hollywood are backing them up with money and movie promotion.

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Okay I'll admit I'm letting my ego get the better of me by replying to your post after I said I would not... I know I'll regret it but I refuse to let flagrant ignorance propagate.

...Are all human progress. It has nothing to do at all with homosexuality. Now YOU FAILED

Nope. You claimed it was "unnatural," so I listed the many acceptable things humans already do that aren't even close to natural. Then you amended your argument using the phrase "human progress" for the first time in this thread after 15-odd pages. This makes me believe you've been simply calling it "unnatural" for years and years and never stopped to think about it for two seconds.
I like how you left #8 on my list out of your quote of me and went on to pretend it doesn't exist. So, instead of just ignoring it, how about you give your input on #8 just as you have given your input on 1-7? (Nice one, omitting it from the quote of the list then going on to call me a failure.)

You're right, I bet gay sex was invented by hippies sometime in the 1960s. /sarcasm

No. It's been around for thousands of year since the Persian culture all the way to the Greeks and onto the Romans.

BTW...homosexuality has been around since the Persian Culture and onto the Greek and then Romans. So this isn't new at all.

Ok... I ignored this at first but now it's getting annoying. Serious question: Do you have any idea what sarcasm is? I await your reply.

How does my logic fail when you are trying to make this into a natural thing and then indirectly call it logic. My point still stand. Two men having sex is not natural. It doesn't happen in the Animal Kingdom. You fail to see my point that 2 birds of the same sex does not build a nest together. A nomadic Lion doesn't go out and seek out a pride of male Lions. A male whale does not travel for 30,000 miles and look for other male whales to mate. Do you see my logic?

Doesn't the bible also say something about creationism, you know, humans not evolving from animals? Thus your argument about "2 male birds in the same nest" is null and void since humans are definitely outside of the "animal kingdom". Now, I don't believe that myself, but I'm doing you a favor by looking at it from the good Christian standpoint, your standpoint and the point of view that you claim is the same as that taken by our founding fathers. What I don't understand, thor, (and by "I don't understand" I mean "doesn't make a lick of sense") is how you can, in good faith, continue to pick and choose from the bible as you please. I don't mind that people believe in the things they do in the bible. I do mind, however, when they (including yourself) pick and choose at their convenience the things in the bible that work the best for themselves. You don't find that... hmm... a bit morally ambiguous? What's stopping you from ignoring what Christianity teaches about homosexuality since you already automatically reject what it has to say about child and spouse abuse and slavery?

You need to re-read my post. You are putting words into my mouth. I said the majority and I didn't say all. Some straight women are pedophiles too and they have a strong attraction to teen boys. And believe it or not many of them are teachers.

Okay. Here's where I challenged you to make your case against homosexuality in regards to pedophilia:

I answered your question, even though pedophilia has nothing to do with gay marriage. You're only grasping at straws trying to connect two completely unrelated subjects.

And then you replied...

Wrong!!! Wes will tell you that I've worked with troubled youths and I've seen it all. Some people are born to be pedophilia just like some people are born gay. The kids I've worked with have a pedophilia mentality and some with being gay. It's a long story, but trust me I know this well among my kids in the past. Majority of the pedophilias are gay and they are very attracted to pre-pubescense boys.

BTW.. ask the Catholic Church why they banned and fired homosexual Priests. 95% of abuse are homosexual in nature towards boys.

So... remind me... what the heck point are you trying to make about pedophilia in regards to a same-sex marriage ban? In other words, in terms of pedophilia, why should same-sex marriage be banned?

Totally pointless. Even if I do have a ton of gay friends my stance still remains the same. BTW... my friend Donny believes in civil union too and not marriage. But you don't care about that, because he doesn't speak out for the whole gay community.

You're right, he doesn't, just like you don't speak on behalf of the gay community just because you know a few homosexuals. Some friendly advice: don't use your friendships with homosexuals to make yourself sound more credible in regards to gay rights. Trust me, you're not doing yourself any favors. It would be like me saying "I'm right because Elton John agrees with me, too."

Not related at all to the topic, but I will tell you this random stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, as I already said at the beginning of this sentence.

Fixed.

Totally unrelated to this discussion. You need to go back in time and ask the founding fathers that same question.

No, picking and choosing from the bible has everything to do with this discussion because... that's what you're doing. If you disagree with this statement you'd only be admitting I've read more of the bible than you have.

Marriage is founded by religion and ALL religion practice marriage to be a sacred covenant between man and woman. ALL religion, not just Christianity, but Islam, Hindu, Bubahism, and Judiasm

It is VERY interesting that you said that. I mean, how often to you argue with a Christian about something and they hit you with "I'm right because it also says it in the Koran"? What self respecting Christian would say that? If the faith is strong, it need not lean on another faith for credibility. (And if you think I just like to hark on Christianity: No, I question everything.)

Also, if you acknowledge what Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc. have to say in regard to how one lives their life, why do you not acknowledge what people outside of religion have to say about it? Are they lesser humans because of their lack of belief in your faith?

And no it's not just the Christians that are saying this, but many athiest, agnostics, and scientists are saying this.

A man making love to a man or woman to woman is plain WRONG and unnatural. It doesn't matter if you are religious, athiest or whatever. It doesn't matter what today's society is saying.

Ahahahaha contradict yourself much? Really I can't wait to see how you explain how you're not contradicting yourself. You're gonna try and weasel out of it somehow, I know, but I just can't wait to see how.

California the most liberal state in the Union voted twice to preserve marriage between a man and a woman.

LOL just LOL
http://www.gallup.com/poll/141677/wy...ve-states.aspx
(Article dated August 2 2010)
I don't see California on that list of the most Liberal states. Make up random facts much?

Just that the minority can't take no for an answer and the liberal media, ACLU, Celebrities, and Hollywood are backing them up with money and movie promotion.

Yeah, darn that constitution what with it's free speech and equal rights bullcrap. And don't you worry too much about the liberal media. There's always Fox News right there to balance it out.

[dmw319]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I dont want to get back into this... but you do understand how much the face of slavery has changed since biblical times right? also, where do you find that the Bible supports child abuse?

[GRNcamaro]

Re: Prop 8 poll

LOL just LOL
http://www.gallup.com/poll/141677/wy...ve-states.aspx
(Article dated August 2 2010)
I don't see California on that list of the most Liberal states. Make up random facts much?

ummmm you read that poll at all? that's self identifying. meaning how the people of the state perceive it.

Based on laws and pass voting records California is a very liberal state

[KJZ28]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I believe that the Government should hold no authority over marriage whatsoever due to marriage being a religious institution. Marriage since the beginning of its inception has always been linked to religion and there is separation of Church and state in this country.(Although that is up for interpretation as well) Therefore in my book there should be no marriage license, because in all reality its just a way to tax the people more.
This would solve everything because homosexuals, though I disagree with the lifestyle, could have their way, and religious people cold have theirs.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Okay I'll admit I'm letting my ego get the better of me by replying to your post after I said I would not... I know I'll regret it but I refuse to let flagrant ignorance propagate.



Nope. You claimed it was "unnatural," so I listed the many acceptable things humans already do that aren't even close to natural. Then you amended your argument using the phrase "human progress" for the first time in this thread after 15-odd pages. This makes me believe you've been simply calling it "unnatural" for years and years and never stopped to think about it for two seconds.
I like how you left #8 on my list out of your quote of me and went on to pretend it doesn't exist. So, instead of just ignoring it, how about you give your input on #8 just as you have given your input on 1-7? (Nice one, omitting it from the quote of the list then going on to call me a failure.)

NOPE..you listed human progress. Not related at all to homosexuality. BTW...how is homosexuality natural? How is a man having sex with a man or woman to woman NATURAL See how brainwashed you are. There's no arguing here. It is simply unnatural. Our body were design to be compatible with the female body in order to procreate. That can not happen in the homsexual world. You need to give it a rest now.

Ok... I ignored this at first but now it's getting annoying. Serious question: Do you have any idea what sarcasm is? I await your reply.

It's plain pointless and stupid. You haven't replied to my Pedophile question either btw.

Doesn't the bible also say something about creationism, you know, humans not evolving from animals? Thus your argument about "2 male birds in the same nest" is null and void since humans are definitely outside of the "animal kingdom". Now, I don't believe that myself, but I'm doing you a favor by looking at it from the good Christian standpoint, your standpoint and the point of view that you claim is the same as that taken by our founding fathers. What I don't understand, thor, (and by "I don't understand" I mean "doesn't make a lick of sense") is how you can, in good faith, continue to pick and choose from the bible as you please. I don't mind that people believe in the things they do in the bible. I do mind, however, when they (including yourself) pick and choose at their convenience the things in the bible that work the best for themselves. You don't find that... hmm... a bit morally ambiguous? What's stopping you from ignoring what Christianity teaches about homosexuality since you already automatically reject what it has to say about child and spouse abuse and slavery?

NOPE that's wrong. We were created in the image of God according to the Bible but what does mean is our spiritual being. Nothing at all to do with the flesh. BTW.. where in the Bible did it say child abuse or spousal abuse?

Since you like making references to the Bible how about these scriptures:

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city
of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot,
"Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so
that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:4-5)

I have more I can quote from. But that's not the point. I've said it from the beginning that I'm defending the definition of Marriage between a man and a woman that religious institutions started. I'm for Civil Union for the gays that gives them benefits.

Okay. Here's where I challenged you to make your case against homosexuality in regards to pedophilia:



And then you replied...



So... remind me... what the heck point are you trying to make about pedophilia in regards to a same-sex marriage ban? In other words, in terms of pedophilia, why should same-sex marriage be banned?

My point with that is that Pedophilia has been around just as long as homosexuality. There are historical records of this, especially in Greece and Rome. In our society today we don't accept pedophiles as homosexuals are and yes there's a lot of them. Just look it up at Sex Offenders site and you'll see how many are living in your area. In my apartment complex there's 3 of them and they are monitor. What I'm trying to say is that if the parties are consentual will this gain acceptance too? But that's not the point either. Let's just forget about this, because my concern is with the definition of marriage and nothing more.

You're right, he doesn't, just like you don't speak on behalf of the gay community just because you know a few homosexuals. Some friendly advice: don't use your friendships with homosexuals to make yourself sound more credible in regards to gay rights. Trust me, you're not doing yourself any favors. It would be like me saying "I'm right because Elton John agrees with me, too."

I don't care about my credibly with them. It's the crediblity of marriage that I care for. Like I said, call it civil union and not marriage. That's all I'm trying to nail here.

No, picking and choosing from the bible has everything to do with this discussion because... that's what you're doing. If you disagree with this statement you'd only be admitting I've read more of the bible than you have.

I brought up religion. I never brought up the Bible into this discussion but you forced me to draw references to it. If you re-read my previous posts you'll see that I've said a couple of times that relgion founded the institution of marriage and they clearly defined it . I also said that no one has the authority to change that definition. Not the government, not a small group of gay people, and definately not Hollywood, lawyers, and fanatic celebrities.

But like I said, there are athiest, agnostics, and scientists who disagree with homosexuals calling their union marriage. They are just being overshadowed by religion.

It is VERY interesting that you said that. I mean, how often to you argue with a Christian about something and they hit you with "I'm right because it also says it in the Koran"? What self respecting Christian would say that? If the faith is strong, it need not lean on another faith for credibility. (And if you think I just like to hark on Christianity: No, I question everything.)

Well, tell you what. Even if I was an atheist I wouldn't support this at all. Why because it doesn't make sense seeing 2 men who decided call their union a marriage. I also didn't support abortion when I was an athiest because I was a biology major in college and I knew the fetus was an unborn baby. But that's not important to this discussion that's another topic that needs a thread of its own.

Also, if you acknowledge what Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc. have to say in regard to how one lives their life, why do you not acknowledge what people outside of religion have to say about it? Are they lesser humans because of their lack of belief in your faith?

It is really simple: Religion founded the institution of marriage and they are the ones that defined it as a unity between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation and rearing of children in order to preserve their race and heritage.

Homosexual union doesn't fall in that definition AT ALL!!! So just call it Civil or Social Union. That's all and nothing more.

LOL just LOL
http://www.gallup.com/poll/141677/wy...ve-states.aspx
(Article dated August 2 2010)
I don't see California on that list of the most Liberal states. Make up random facts much?

Ahhh, the only republican around here is the governor, Arnold. Even he's very liberal. Just look at how Calif. vote and who are the majority in office for the past 40 years. Calif. is the most liberal state there is. Hell, this is a breeding ground for the EPA who has the full support of the Democrats. This is the reason why I can't modify my Firebird the way I want too. I can't even buy a catalytic converter and I was told to take off my supercharger and my pacesetters or else I wouldn't be allowed to drive my car because even if I pass smog I won't pass inspection. Now is this true for other states? NO. So you are wrong. Too many regulations here.

Yeah, darn that constitution what with it's free speech and equal rights bullcrap. And don't you worry too much about the liberal media.

I don't have cable so I don't see fox or CNN at all. I have to go to my parents to watch them. Like I said, this was voted 2 x's already in Calif. and twice traditional marriage won. Now if you believe in democracy this should stay. NOOOooo...but the people on the higher up with a lot of money and power are getting the say on this and they were able to turn it around. Again, and I repeat:

Marriage is founded by religion and ALL religion practice marriage to be a sacred covenant between man and woman. ALL religion, not just Christianity, but Islam, Hindu, Bubahism, and Judiasm. The purpose of marriage is not to become one but to procreate and rear children in order to continue the growth of their population and heritage of their race.

This is NOT possible with two homosexual individuals.