Prop 8 poll

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

If homosexuality is "natural" aka exists in nature, that doesn't mean that it is something that everyone should have to accept... by this I don't mean that they shouldn't be accepted, I'm just saying that's not a good reason...

It has been proven that there is no "homo gene". It was proven very simply... you look at identical twins, they are born with identical genes, and there have been cases where one twin is gay and one is not. If homosexuality was a genetic trait, then both twins would be one or the other, or there would at least be a trend or pattern based on their genes relative to their sexual preference, but there is none.

There has been evidence of a genetic predisposition for homosexuality in a relatively new field of study known as "epigenetics". Basically there are chemical "activators" known as markers that can switch certain genes on or off causing certain changes in an individual. These activators, most commonly found in the form of Methyl Markers have been known to cause various abnormalities such as Cancer and Autism. Both of which require a certain gene to be present in order for them to occur. The one most commonly mentioned is the BRCA1 gene that has been shown to cause breast cancer in women. What hasn't been understood until recently is that there are women who have the gene, but do NOT get breast cancer. That's where the "activators" come in. It is still unclear what causes the activators to activate, but when they do, they "turn on" the BRCA1 gene and that gene causes breast cancer.

Where epigenetics becomes interesting (and relevant to this discussion) is that your genetic markers can be altered by your behavior, unlike your genes which you are born with, and unless exposed to radiation, remain the same throughout your life. Epigenetic markers, once altered, can then be passed on to offspring and can cause a predisposition to certain behaviors or pathologies, ie addiction, pedophilia, obesity aaaaand homosexuality... all can be passed down through generations without ever affecting the human gene itself.

There is still alot to learn about epigenetics, but knowing what has been proven so far, the argument that humans are "born gay" and that because of that fact we should all accept it would fit for many things that have been described already. Mighty Thor hit it on the head when he related our "acceptance" of this to pedophilia. The same could be said of alcoholics and drug addicts. Social patterns and epigenetics have shown that people who are born to parents with certain behaviors may have a "natural" predisposition to engage in certain behaviors themselves.

I'm not trying to use this as an argument to accept or deny someone the right to marry, but just trying to make people understand that the argument that this is "natural" only works if you also claim that being a drug addict, being obese, being an alcoholic, being a pedophile are also natural and should all be equally accepted.

and I also agree with Thor that this apparent "acceptance" of homosexuality is a direct result of liberal media and it's spokespeople... most gay people I know get annoyed when they see gay rallies and see "gay-spokespeople" on TV because they claim to speak for them, but they are just pushing their own agendas, often being to make the so-called "christian conservatives" look bad.

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

often being to make the so-called "christian conservatives" look bad.

No, they do that on their own. In their defense, however, every religion finds it hard to look good when a magical wizard overseeing the fate of the universe lies at the core of their beliefs system. From my own atheist point of view I find that, once people buy into that, they start to buy into just about anything that follows without much question. They put faith before reason, and it's hard to argue with someone like that.

[v6mOtOrhEAdftOp]

Re: Prop 8 poll

to sum it up, if you take my personal beliefs (which is, that gays should be able to be formed in a union bond, but not called marriage), then you would satisfy both parties.

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

[4thgenowner]

Re: Prop 8 poll

LOL leave it to you guys to talk about whether it should be legal or not to let a bunch of *** pounders to get married.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Prop 8 poll

you cant tell me people dont look up to their parents and want to be like them for the most part.

Some do, some don't. Depends on the parent. Its an irrelevant and circumstantial thing to compare to gay marriage.

how would you like to explain the aids in the gay americans that are not impoverished or ignorant?

Same reasons why AIDS can be seen in heterosexual males and females, unprotected sex, sharing needles, etc. Not limited to the gay community. Again, circumstantial and irrelevant to gay marriage.

also gay unions/ marriages end in a much higher divorce rate that heterosexual one, especially for women. This is in my psychology book, ill get the name of the book friday or sunday when im at home

Awesome, I think you're ****ing psych book is wrong then. This article is 4 years old, showing that states that allow same sex marriage have the lowest divorce rates in comparison to states that do not allow it.

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2006/07/lowest-divorce/

[Bird_Of_Prey]

Re: Prop 8 poll

No, they do that on their own. In their defense, however, every religion finds it hard to look good when a magical wizard overseeing the fate of the universe lies at the core of their beliefs system. From my own atheist point of view I find that, once people buy into that, they start to buy into just about anything that follows without much question. They put faith before reason, and it's hard to argue with someone like that.

This. The invisible man in the sky is always watching, and will give us a mansion.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Prop 8 poll

It has been proven that there is no "homo gene". It was proven very simply... you look at identical twins, they are born with identical genes, and there have been cases where one twin is gay and one is not. If homosexuality was a genetic trait, then both twins would be one or the other, or there would at least be a trend or pattern based on their genes relative to their sexual preference, but there is none.

There has been evidence of a genetic predisposition for homosexuality in a relatively new field of study known as "epigenetics". Basically there are chemical "activators" known as markers that can switch certain genes on or off causing certain changes in an individual. .

You brought up an interesting topic. Epigenetics is still fairly new in the field of Biology and yes it's gaining recognition. As a matter of fact I used to train one of the twins and I notice this twin wanted to gain weight because he's genetically prone to being skinny. While the other twin express no interest at all. He was able to add 20lbs of muscles to his frame, while the other twin expressed his genetic endowment.

But let's put that aside. I got an mail from one of my so-called gay friend who turn his life around. I had no plan in sharing this, but since you brought this up I might as well.

Edgar,

I wish you and your wife could make it to my wedding. .... It's hard to beleive 8 years ago I was a very active gay man and very active in my gay community.... After going to a number of gay parties (orgy parties actually) where I have 5 to as many 12 guys doing me I've stopped having sex altogether. Less than a year later I contracted something. I was losing weight like crazy. I went from a buff 200lbs down to 140lbs in less than 4 month. I thought I've gotten HIV (this letter was from 2001 where AIDS was very deadly). I had a number of test done to me and they found out that my liver was inflamed. More test was done and I found out that I have hepatitis B. I told the doctors everything, including my sexual escapades. Thank God I was negative for HIV.... I feel like I have a new lease in life and I've decided not to live my life anymore as a gay man. I guess I embraced being gay because they accepted me very easily compare to how others treated me, except you that is.... Now I'm marrying the woman that I love and I hope to be a father someday. ...I'm back to working out and my weight is up to 180lbs now. Hope to be 200lbs again....

Otaner Regala

[v6mOtOrhEAdftOp]

Re: Prop 8 poll

You brought up an interesting topic. Epigenetics is still fairly new in the field of Biology and yes it's gaining recognition. As a matter of fact I used to train one of the twins and I notice this twin wanted to gain weight because he's genetically prone to being skinny. While the other twin express no interest at all. He was able to add 20lbs of muscles to his frame, while the other twin expressed his genetic endowment.

But let's put that aside. I got an mail from one of my so-called gay friend who turn his life around. I had no plan in sharing this, but since you brought this up I might as well.

Edgar,

I wish you and your wife could make it to my wedding. .... It's hard to beleive 8 years ago I was a very active gay man and very active in my gay community.... After going to a number of gay parties (orgy parties actually) where I have 5 to as many 12 guys doing me I've stopped having sex altogether. Less than a year later I contracted something. I was losing weight like crazy. I went from a buff 200lbs down to 140lbs in less than 4 month. I thought I've gotten HIV (this letter was from 2001 where AIDS was very deadly). I had a number of test done to me and they found out that my liver was inflamed. More test was done and I found out that I have hepatitis B. I told the doctors everything, including my sexual escapades. Thank God I was negative for HIV.... I feel like I have a new lease in life and I've decided not to live my life anymore as a gay man. I guess I embraced being gay because they accepted me very easily compare to how others treated me, except you that is.... Now I'm marrying the woman that I love and I hope to be a father someday. ...I'm back to working out and my weight is up to 180lbs now. Hope to be 200lbs again....

Otaner Regala

You bring up a very valiant part to which was the mainstream topic of my article. Actually, this is not an uncommon event in the gay community.

Many gays will tell you that their decision is a "life choice," meaning that they could be straight if they wanted to, but connect well with others that understand them better.

Altering their hormone levels has proven to be ineffective when it comes to enhancing their sexual appeal for the opposite sex, while changing their group of friends has made a very big influence on their sexual partner preference.

People may not think of it, but some "gays" are actual very much straight, but choose the lifestyle of a homosexual person becuase of problems as a child of being accepted in the household or having a single dominant parent of the opposite sex

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

people with liberal views spend much more time arguing about why people who disagree with them think the way they do, instead of actually arguing about what they think... If you don't agree with organized religion, or think religion is a crock altogether, then that's your prerogative... but disagreeing with why someone has a certain opinion (or why you THINK they have a certain opinion) gets you no where and only serves to be insulting (which is also your prerogative)... and more often than not, you're wrong in assuming that someone doesn't approve of gay marriage because God told them to. I am not a christian, many of my personal morals coincide with Christian morals, but that doesn't make me a Christian. The left always points to the radical right and paints anyone who has a conservative opinion as a right-wing bible thumping fascist... it's just not true... Both sides do it, but when it comes to issues such as this (and abortion and stem cell research etc.) the left always paint everyone who shares my opinion as a RADICAL... but voting results, as Thor said, in the most liberal state in the union have shown that my opinion is much more mainstream and centrist than the liberal media and politicians and activists would have you believe.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

You bring up a very valiant part to which was the mainstream topic of my article. Actually, this is not an uncommon event in the gay community.

Many gays will tell you that their decision is a "life choice," meaning that they could be straight if they wanted to, but connect well with others that understand them better.

Altering their hormone levels has proven to be ineffective when it comes to enhancing their sexual appeal for the opposite sex, while changing their group of friends has made a very big influence on their sexual partner preference.

People may not think of it, but some "gays" are actual very much straight, but choose the lifestyle of a homosexual person becuase of problems as a child of being accepted in the household or having a single dominant parent of the opposite sex

This is just like other predispositions such as alcoholism and obesity, you still have a choice... it's not like being born with blue eyes or freckles, which no matter what you do, you cannot change... but behavioral traits that may or may not be passed down can be changed for the better (or for the worse). Like I said before though, I'm not using this as an argument against gay marriage, I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't make sense to use the "natural" argument for gay marriage

[Heywood]

Re: Prop 8 poll

I came across this yesterday... thought of this thread.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmlcuY8bOUk Just watch the first half.
(David Yost played the Billy, the blue ranger on the original Mighty Morphin Power Rangers series)

[Bird_Of_Prey]

Re: Prop 8 poll

people with liberal views spend much more time arguing about why people who disagree with them think the way they do, instead of actually arguing about what they think... If you don't agree with organized religion, or think religion is a crock altogether, then that's your prerogative... but disagreeing with why someone has a certain opinion (or why you THINK they have a certain opinion) gets you no where and only serves to be insulting (which is also your prerogative)... and more often than not, you're wrong in assuming that someone doesn't approve of gay marriage because God told them to. I am not a christian, many of my personal morals coincide with Christian morals, but that doesn't make me a Christian. The left always points to the radical right and paints anyone who has a conservative opinion as a right-wing bible thumping fascist... it's just not true... Both sides do it, but when it comes to issues such as this (and abortion and stem cell research etc.) the left always paint everyone who shares my opinion as a RADICAL... but voting results, as Thor said, in the most liberal state in the union have shown that my opinion is much more mainstream and centrist than the liberal media and politicians and activists would have you believe.

The arguement is that it doesn't require your or anyones approval. Why should you have to approve someone's lifestyle choice? It's their choice. Notice how I ended that right there with a period. There shouldn't be a discussion.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Is being religious not a lifestyle choice?

[Bird_Of_Prey]

Re: Prop 8 poll

Is being religious not a lifestyle choice?

It is. No one is programmed from birth to believe in the invisible man in the sky. You have your freedom to act and follow your beliefs. Why would you deny that to someone else. Most religions teach compassion, which is lost on all the right wing bible thumpers.

[T-Mill]

Re: Prop 8 poll

It is. No one is programmed from birth to believe in the invisible man in the sky. You have your freedom to act and follow your beliefs. Why would you deny that to someone else. Most religions teach compassion, which is lost on all the right wing bible thumpers.

This only represents the fringe right, and radicals on the fringe right are not the only ones voting to define marriage as between one man and one woman. I don't agree with the people who think that homosexuality is an abomination and that every gay person should be rounded up and stoned to death. Just like I'm sure you don't agree with those on the fringe left who believe that homosexuality should be taught, encouraged and preached to people, especially kids.

Your assumption that people who don't believe in gay marriage are "right-wing bible thumpers" is further evidence of this topic's portrayal in the liberal media...

and compassion doesn't just mean tolerance and acceptance... most organizations that help people fight addiction and alcoholism etc. are religious based. An organization can be compassionate with an individual or group while still being publicly unapproving of their behavior. Compassion isn't absent of morality.