July 4th Thoughts

[FirebirdGT]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/0...tml?&hpt=hp_c2
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[2.8 Bird]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

:tdown: CNN :tdown:

"But Jefferson penned another phrase, arguably his most famous after those from the Declaration of Independence. These far more contentious words -- "a wall of separation between church and state" "

Stupid lawyers keep using those words. Jefferson wrote a letter to his friend about separation of church and state. It was not a part of a document.

Can somebody tell me where are these words in the Declaration of Independence? It clearly state that Gov. shall make no law against Religion. The Founding Fathers were trying to protect Religious Freedom and not trying to protect the country from religion.

YES, FOUNDING FATHERS WERE ALL CHRISTIANS and they were all church goers.

[DAS BOOT]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Funny we were having a discussion on another board about the theory of evolution being taught in schools.


I am not religous, but I think theology(chirstianity, islam, budhism, greek, roman, etc...) should be taught in schools. I believe most all the religions teach morality and basic human goodness. I really think our nation youth needs to hear and see this. Not be shunned from it. I think all the major religions should be touched upon. I am just saying be taught, not be practiced. Provide kids with the info, let them make their choice to be atheist, agnostic, or pick a religion.


I am sorry but religion is probably the number one influence on the formation of the Human Culture ever since humans created a society. It has caused wars, fights, and battles that have changed the world forever. Hell look what religous fanatics has done to our nation and the world in the last 10 years. It has affected billions.

Hell isn't the bible still the most published book in the history of man?



I just think its silly to shun it all and ignore it. Teach it as a part of human nature. All the religions have great morla lessons and stories. Think of it as a Disney movie X 10.

[dmw319]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

YES, FOUNDING FATHERS WERE ALL CHRISTIANS and they were all church goers.

disagree. many were just deists

[Blizzard242]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Religion is not a topic I like to discuss.. But teach it as a part of human nature? I find it sad that people would only do good towards others due to the fact that they'll either be rewarded or punished in an afterlife. Compassion and empathy should be taught, if it were possible, because that should be enough for morality.

Here's a trick.. Try seperating state and greed.

[2.8 Bird]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

disagree. many were just deists

No, if you read what each of the Founding Father wrote in their spare time to their friends you'll see that they are not Deists. Deists are nothing more than what we call Agnostics today, IMO. It's what Atheist would always base their argument on. I have tons of quotes from them that will prove my point.

Just because they read some of the articles from the age of enlightenment and got some ideas from it doesn't mean they were Deists.

All of them are Protestants and they went to Protestant churches. They were Methodist, Angelicans, Presbeters, Baptist, and Quakers. There were a few Catholics. They were careful not to let one religion denomination to dominate another and dominate this country but at the same time they don't want any religion to be supressed by the Gov.

They start their Congressional meeting with an opening prayer and they close it with a closing prayer. Pick up any biography from any of these Founding Fathers and you'll see what denomination they belong.
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When the Declaration of Independance was created it was read out loud to the people. The majority of the people back then were illiterate. They were to pursue their own destiny without the oppression from the Mother Country, according to God's gift of free will. When the British read the Declaration they knew it meant rebellion.

[FirebirdGT]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

No, if you read what each of the Founding Father wrote in their spare time to their friends you'll see that they are not Deists. Deists are nothing more than what we call Agnostics today, IMO. It's what Atheist would always base their argument on. I have tons of quotes from them that will prove my point.

Just because they read some of the articles from the age of enlightenment and got some ideas from it doesn't mean they were Deists.

All of them are Protestants and they went to Protestant churches. They were Methodist, Angelicans, Presbeters, Baptist, and Quakers. There were a few Catholics. They were careful not to let one religion denomination to dominate another and dominate this country but at the same time they don't want any religion to be supressed by the Gov.

They start their Congressional meeting with an opening prayer and they close it with a closing prayer. Pick up any biography from any of these Founding Fathers and you'll see what denomination they belong.
-------------------------

When the Declaration of Independance was created it was read out loud to the people. The majority of the people back then were illiterate. They were to pursue their own destiny without the oppression from the Mother Country, according to God's gift of free will. When the British read the Declaration they knew it meant rebellion.

Yes - let's see what they wrote to their friends.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

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[2.8 Bird]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Yes - let's see what they wrote to there friends.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

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Ahhh those were written towards clerics who abuse their powers and to those who are hypocrites. It's not about them against christianity or religion.

Now let's look at what they really said:

1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.


John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.


Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237. "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

[dmw319]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

For every quote you find, I can find one the opposite.

Jefferson didnt believe in the Trinity:
"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

Or the virgin birth:
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823


Did not believe Jesus was God...
"The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

Materialism or Spiritualism?
"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

And this is just Jefferson...

[Mogobs30th]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Our founding fathers were not bible-toting individuals. They didn't believe in the Bible, they got their ideas about morality and mortality from it. Present day Christians are a FAR CRY of what our founding fathers were. Ben Franklin himself was a member of 6 or 7 different sects of churches, rotating his time between them. But his TRUE beliefs were that of a Deist. Did he believe in Christianity, no, but he used Christianity in his everyday life by interpreting the stories in the Bible, not living the Bible word for word. Ive always admired the way Franklin viewed religion in his life, as well as other things. I don't read much, but I have read his autobiography and letters. VERY good read if you're curious about the minds of one of our founding fathers.

Can somebody tell me where are these words in the Declaration of Independence? It clearly state that Gov. shall make no law against Religion. The Founding Fathers were trying to protect Religious Freedom and not trying to protect the country from religion.

False. They weren't trying to protect the COUNTRY from religion, they were trying to protect the GOVERNMENT from religion. The founding fathers didn't want government to be biased towards a single church/religion, hence the separation of church from state. Our government should not be involved or influenced by current Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or another religions agendas, in fear of having that bias eventually persecute those who were not of the same church/religion.

Pick up any biography from any of these Founding Fathers and you'll see what denomination they belong.

Again, Franklin himself was involved in several different churches simultaneously. He could have been officially of a certain religion, but he didn't practice it. Instead, his interests led him to several different religions, as he was interested in their interpretations of Christianity. But he didn't FOLLOW those religions.

Just because they read some of the articles from the age of enlightenment and got some ideas from it doesn't mean they were Deists.

A quote from Ben Franklin's autobiography...

. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Franklin was a Deist, those were his beliefs. The very quote you had yourself is the words of a Deist. Franklin use religion as a guide to morality for all new Americans, he didn't use it as a blueprint to live day to day. He believed more that God was not a being to be prayed to, but to be respected (i.e. "worshipped"). He believed that human kind was in control of its own destiny, not controlled by an ominous being in search of repentence and prayer. He let common sense dictate his actions, and he believed that whatever gifts from God were to be respected, but HUMANLY respected. He just didn't believe in the hocus-pocus BS that most Christians praise about.

I find it sad that people would only do good towards others due to the fact that they'll either be rewarded or punished in an afterlife.

This is EXACTLY how the founding fathers thought. They didn't do their good deeds because they were wanting a better afterlife, they did them because they instinctually knew it was the right thing to do.

[jughead]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Starting to get ugly in here. I'll just say this. When peeps say seperation of church and state, what does that mean? THe Constitution says that also. You have freedom OF religion, you do NOT have the right to have freedom FROM religion....I.E U can pratice what you want, but dont cry when other people around you largley pratice and you dont.

[DAS BOOT]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Starting to get ugly in here. I'll just say this. When peeps say seperation of church and state, what does that mean? THe Constitution says that also. You have freedom OF religion, you do NOT have the right to have freedom FROM religion....I.E U can pratice what you want, but dont cry when other people around you largley pratice and you dont.

I agree. I am not religous, but I think its crazy we do everything we can and fight to keep religion away. I M not saying force anyone to practice anything but I think its good to educate the pi pic and let them think for themself. Not censor it.

[96RS Alex]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

I hope we don't bring the bible to Mars when it's colonized say in 500 years. It would repeat problems attributed to contrasting religions around the world especially like those in 'holy lands'.

Imagine a world without religion - John Lennon

Sung by Dave Mustaine of MEGADETH
"Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand

Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command?"

This song is about Holy Wars, wars that are motivated by religion. Dave tries to express his feelings, about just how stupid it is to kill because you think that God commanded you to. So he says that people, who go blind by there religious feelings, are capable of doing things like killing there own familly...

[2.8 Bird]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

For every quote you find, I can find one the opposite.

Jefferson didnt believe in the Trinity:
"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

Or the virgin birth:
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823


Did not believe Jesus was God...
"The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

Materialism or Spiritualism?
"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

And this is just Jefferson...

For every ONE letter Jefferson wrote like that he wrote a DOZEN more praising God, church, Bible, and Religion. And he wrote those in order to be read in an assembly. The letters you are showing are nothing more than personal letters. That's a failure among Atheists who like to use that as a back up to their argument when AGAIN those are NOT part of any documents.

Again, you need to read Thomas Jefferson's biography. These quotes you are showing were not written during the height of war or before that. It wasn't even written close to the time when he drafted the Declaration.

He wrote it way after -- because he was caught committing adultery and sleeping around with the female slaves and the clerics and his colleagues came down hard on him.

Hell, his great, great, great grand son happens to be my supervisor. And he's black.

[2.8 Bird]

Re: July 4th Thoughts

Starting to get ugly in here. I'll just say this. When peeps say seperation of church and state, what does that mean? THe Constitution says that also. You have freedom OF religion, you do NOT have the right to have freedom FROM religion....I.E U can pratice what you want, but dont cry when other people around you largley pratice and you dont.

Seperation of Church and State doesn't exist in the Constitution at all.

The First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

That's it in the Constitution. Whether you are religious or not you are free to choose.