new job

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

Is that necessary?

Absolutely. I can't express that point enough actually. And every journeyman in the country will say exactly the same thing. We simply don't have the time nor patience to deal with every question, idea, thought, or problem a green apprentice will have. WRITE THINGS DOWN. I have quite a few notebooks with job and information regarding my trade. It's far better than anything one person could have taught me.

[3.8lcoty]

Re: new job

i agree with writing stuff down

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

and i dont see the reason why there is a fuss starting over this,you have to start somewhere to get somewhere so there is nothing wrong with these classifications because i am sure a 20+ year electrition will not wont to be doing grunt work

I get paid an insane amount of money, but in no way shape or form is there a job that is too ****ty for me. I've programmed high end security and card access systems as well as got on my hands and knees with a broom and dust pan and picked out bits of metal from carpet. It all pays the same

[3.8lcoty]

Re: new job

okay if you were a contractor would you pay someone with years of experience an insane amount of money to sweep floors and clean up trash or would you pay someone way less with no experience to do it

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

If it's a one man crew, I need someone there that can do everything. Not all electrical work is new or remodel construction. A big chunk of it is MAC work ( Moves, Adds, and Changes). And there are rules to work and apprentices, certain JC to apprentice ratios that need to be abided by. It's also a fact that I need versatility as a contractor. When everything is cleaned up, material in its place, I can always have the JC doing other things, where as I have you that can't do anything but electrical laboring. And most sweeping and cleaning would be done by laborers, which is a different trade union all together.

[1997Canadian3.8]

Re: new job

X2 with the Union BS. Worked in one and hated it. They stand up for the wrong things and really don't have a place in today's labour laws. 40 years ago they were necessary, now they're greedy.

Any newbie will have to do grunt work and learn the hard way, no matter the industry. Stick with it if you're serious, and I'm sure you'll do fine.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

X2 with the Union BS. Worked in one and hated it. They stand up for the wrong things and really don't have a place in today's labour laws. 40 years ago they were necessary, now they're greedy.

To say that a union has no place in todays world is ignorance. Labor laws are no different than gun laws are for example. They're only as good as the person abiding by them and the individuals enforcing them. Criminals don't abide by gun laws, and criminals don't abide by labor laws. And greedy isn't exactly what Im thinking a union is either, considering many unions represent workers whose employers make 10 and 20 times more than their represented employees. So lets think, whos really greedy.....

A union is like any other entity in this country though. You have good ones, and you have ****ty ones. Some unions are ****ty. Just depends on who you have a leaders.

[DAS BOOT]

Re: new job

I actually take it seriously. There's too many legit electricians out of work now, there's no need for this classification. And considering I more than likely make more than you Eric, I think this "union bull****" might be worth considering.

Maybe you do, we live in very different areas, I also lived in one of the least taxed states while you live in a higher taxed one.

So making more money makes unions right? I here you saying people in your field are having a hard time finding work. My job is the opposite, they are begging us to come in and work weekends(not so much long hours, we have 3 full shifts), I actually just got paid Doubletime to work today. We are hiring like crazy, and are going to start getting spread a little thin soon. Also my tools, ppe, and consumables are 100% provided for me.

Just saying my family is from the Gary Indiana area, they used to work great Union jobs... In the steel industry... how is that industry now? oh yeah its gone.




Either way, I going back to union bull****. I hate the entire "thats no your job" "they took our jobs" attitude. I would go ****ing nuts in a job like that. You don't answer questions? The apprentices need to shut the **** up and bring their tools? Come on...

I work with people in my field that have been working in my field longer then I have been alive. They are great, they help me, answer my questions, we work great together. In fact they come to me alot of times because we work with something all new, and I learned alot of the new systems, and explain it to them, and they explain traditional systems, we all work together and get work done. Next time we do the job, we work well together. Its one of those things that makes the human race great, we work together to accomplish jobs.



But then I am SCAB son of a *****, taking some guys job. So much so the Union bought a famous corrupt politician from your hometown to try and shut us down.

[1997Canadian3.8]

Re: new job

Amen....

Tell me the guy putting 3 screws in a bumper at Ford deserves $60,000-70,000 a year and full benefits, oh and his Union will fight for a bonus and less hours of work. Common....

Unions should battle working conditions, that's their purpose. It is their greed, nepotism, laziness that drives me nuts. They waste millions of tax paying dollars fighting arbitrations and wages for their already overpaid work force.

Perfect example: Local issue with the CAW/ UAW, 5 heavy equipment operators were caught smoking joints and drinking on their lunch break, their union stood up for them and fought for them to keep their jobs. Are you kidding me?? Drinking and smoking at work and your union is going to protect you...

Unions have significant political power through lobbying, that is basically their only benefit to the working class, assuming they have decent leadership.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

The guy putting in 3 screws into a bumper at Ford deserves a living wage and benefits that will support his family, just like everyone else. And I see far more greed on the managerial level of business than I do on the labor level. But I gotta ask, who are you to dictate what another persons time away from his life and family are worth? That's not a decision you get to make. And you're not in a union, yet you comment on laziness and greed on the part of the union?

I've seen pics of that house you live in, I know for sure there aren't many union members in this world living in a house like that. And many union members worked as hard if not harder to earn what we have than you could fathom, all while in hazardous conditions, bad weather, etc. I don't care what you make, but to sit back and listen to someone with a pretentious and arrogant attitude tell me and my fellow brotherhood as to what we should make, sorry, not going to tolerate it.

As for a couple guys sitting back and smoking weed, I agree, they should have lost their jobs. But that's what the UAW/CAW agreed with the Big 3, was intervention and rehabilitation, which I'm almost certain happened in that case. But blaming unions as a whole based on a few guys actions? Seems to be stereotyping....

Eric, we aren't airplane mechanics. Tradesmen don't show up to the same site everyday, nor do they work with the same people everyday, hence why we are called "journeymen" We have a required tool list that costs roughly $500, which we must have at all times. They are to be provided by the union member. Any other tool is up for the contractor to provide.

[DAS BOOT]

Re: new job

Wait, now I have the nice house? Weren't you the one talking about making more money then me and telling me how I should consider joining one? So at first its brag how well Union members get paid, then its poor union guys don't live as well as you do. Make up your mind.


Your conditions can be hazardous, and in bad weather. Because my job doesn't face those same issues?


Union guys always bring up the old "you aren't in a union, you wouldn't know" W

I am actuallly in a unique position. My company is massive, it is also heavy heavy union, and been for decades. In fact my location is one of the few non-union places in the company. Even further we both make the exact same product, we have had numerous people come down from that plant to work with us and they are blown away with how much work we get done.

A common acronym thrown around my job is MFP, Multi-function-personal. Our jobs are not split up individually by where one person can;t do another's job.

Either way the thing I like the most, is being able to talk to my management like an adult A managers job is to get the job done as soon as possible as cheap as possible. If he isn't trying ot save money he isn't doing his job. Its not greed, its not "us vs. them". It is simple business. If people can save money going to someone else and the quality is the same, they will. It is about keeping the company competitive. Companies that don't adapt and improve, go under.

Managers giving out crappy pay will not keep your workforce happy, they will leave and you will bring in less qualified people and it will affect quality. Which is fine if they don't want as high quality.

My company we have lots of employee involvement meetings and our leadership has numerous meetings explaining cost saving measures that impact us daily. In these meetings we have crosstalking, and we actually come up with compromises and plans to make jobs better.

With a Union, you have to deal with the middle man, that takes part of your check home every week. Management actually likes unions, they don't have to work as hard, they just ***** to the union steward, not actually deal with the employee.

[vanbibber]

Re: new job

soo.... how do i get a job down there eric? lol

[sac2165]

Re: new job

Good luck with that. No one will answer a CW apprentice questions. He's going to have it rough, ...

I don't understand the Union rivalries; What ever happened to working as a team, and trying to do the best job possible - - to secure future work opportunities...?

I get to work with a lot of decision makers in industry, and I can tell you first hand that union shenanigans like this is a real turn-off when it comes to future expansions.

[espey_16]

Re: new job

Good luck with the new job. Make the best of it. Not everybody is gonna be grumpy while you're there. Just work hard and do the best you can, you should be fine.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

Wait, now I have the nice house? Weren't you the one talking about making more money then me and telling me how I should consider joining one? So at first its brag how well Union members get paid, then its poor union guys don't live as well as you do. Make up your mind.

That wasn't directed at you. It was directed at our Canadian friend. He responded right after you, read the posts in lineage, might make more sense next time....

Union guys always bring up the old "you aren't in a union, you wouldn't know" W

Of course, most of your comments say as such. Talking to management thru union stewards?? Management liking unions because they just complain to the steward? Dealing with a "middle-man"? Taking money out of my check weekly?? No Eric, Im afraid you don't know what you're talking about. These comments are blatantly obvious. None of these statements are true in all unions, and its uneducated comments like this that make you sound silly. Sorry to say, but you're not right. You have seen one facet, one side, one small percentage of a certain type of union, and you have AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMED they all operate the same way. You don't know what you're talking about, and its because YOU ARENT IN A UNION, YOU WOULDN'T KNOW.

1. I do not pay weekly dues. I pay quarterly dues, which are itemized so I know EXACTLY what Im paying for.

2. Many in management positions within my company ARE union members as well. My project manager still holds a card, pays dues, receives a base pay plus commission.

3. Union stewards aren't what you think they are in the trades. They are not the "middle-man" to which we communicate to management. We communicate to management ourselves. A shop or union steward in the trades oversees that the CBA is being upheld by BOTH sides of the table.

A common acronym thrown around my job is MFP, Multi-function-personal. Our jobs are not split up individually by where one person can;t do another's job.

Electrical construction is FAR FAR too broad to have one person capable of doing it all. It involves everything from programming a Cisco switch to installing high tension transmission power lines. No one person in this country could do everything and all of it inbetween, which is why we have classifications. I am classified as a Communications Journeyman. I have been trained on low voltage systems, including telecom, fiber optics, high end card access and security, fire alarm systems, AV installations and programming for it all. Im not trained nor have I had training in high voltage systems. My classification doesn't necessitate that. My pay and classification represents the training Ive had. We dont have "MPF's", simply because one person couldn't possibly know everything there is to know about everything requiring electricity. The guy from the local power company and I might be in the same union, but he's not going to come into an MDF and start fusion splicing fiber optic strands, nor am I going to shove myself into a transformer enclosure and start trimming out live three-phase transformers.....hence the classification.

Now our friend here, 3.8lcoty, is apprenticing in a classification that was created to actually make our work more competitive to general contractors and customers alike. A CW/CEs job would be to do the gruntwork, and 2/3s the cost of what a full out A card (journeyman electrician) would make. His job would be to come in, pull and label cabling and wire, possibly dress it all in to its home and head ends, clean up work spaces, move and distribute materials to A cards, and assist A cards. But he's not going to be trained to do the high end and more dangerous work. Its not part of his apprenticeship, and its not up to the A cards to train him. If he wanted to be a full out A card, he needs the training to accompany that, much of which he won't get out in the field. He would be getting paid roughly 2/3s of what an A card would make to be this assistant. In theory, with this new classification, it lowers the bids that would have to be put in by the electrical contractors, making us more competitive to other union and non-union contractors.

Our issue is that the IBEW and the NECA contractors overlooked many potential jobs to go after bigger fish. We were too busy building ONE Sears Tower when we could have also been building 1000 McDonalds as well. But these companies don't want to pay a huge premium price for such a small location. Hence the introduction of the CW/CE. The problem with it all comes down to the timing. This is the WORST time this classification could have been started. We have thousands of A cards out of work. These guys have put their time in, have been properly trained in all aspects of construction electrical, and know what they're doing. And these guys aren't working, while on the other hand we bring in a new classification of cheaper labor. You leave those guys out of work for a short amount of time, now to almost indefinitely.

Either way the thing I like the most, is being able to talk to my management like an adult A managers job is to get the job done as soon as possible as cheap as possible. If he isn't trying ot save money he isn't doing his job. Its not greed, its not "us vs. them". It is simple business. If people can save money going to someone else and the quality is the same, they will. It is about keeping the company competitive. Companies that don't adapt and improve, go under.

So when your bosses come down and require you to take a 30% paycut, while they drive home in a Maserati or Ferrari, are you going to tell yourself its to keep the company competitive? Are you going to sit back and get **** on like that if the situation arises? Lemme tell you something, if your company starts taking losses due to competition, your managers aren't going to come out of their office and ask you what they should do. They're just going to start cutting where they can cut, and they start with labor. If the upper echelon of management and stockholders gave a **** about you and your coworkers opinions to make their company more efficient, you'd be running the company, wouldn't you? If they valued your opinion like you think they do, youd already have a corner office at corporate headquarters and a personal assistant. But you don't, simply because you and your opinions don't matter that much to them. Those goofy meetings are there to probably just patronize you into thinking you're important, to put more pride in your job. But put those same managers in a panicked state, and those meetings won't mean ****. They're going to do what they think is best, and that will be to get rid of whatever liability they have to their bottom line.

I don't understand the Union rivalries; What ever happened to working as a team, and trying to do the best job possible - - to secure future work opportunities...?

I get to work with a lot of decision makers in industry, and I can tell you first hand that union shenanigans like this is a real turn-off when it comes to future expansions.

Working as a team to do the best job possible is what we do all the time. So Im not real sure what you mean exactly by "shenanigans".....and Im sure any union in their eyes is a turn off, because we don't accept what they consider our market value to be. Difference comes down to morality. We're not commodities to be traded, we're not expendable parts to the "bottom line". We're human, we breathe, eat, and **** just like they do.