new job

[adrummer02L78]

Re: new job

I don't know. I was a non-union glazer, I wasn't making millions but was doing okay. I had a place to live, nice car and cash to party. Sometimes we worked on so-called "union sites". I will never forget that. We had to PAY a fee in order to be able to work. Where is the justice in that??? If we didn't pay we couldn't get the work contract because the union had to allow it. I also cannot remember how many times guys came up and said: "Where's your union card?" And then of course the running to the supervisor and calling all there buddies together in order to get us kicked of the job-site because we weren't union. And also not being able to work saturdays even if we were swamped because we had to have permission from the union we had to PAY in order to be able to work, not even being members. And on a couple of other job sites where we couldn't work during the week because they would threaten to do stuff to us or our vehicles so we had to work saturday and sunday, the supervisor letting us in and locking the gates behind us because they knew some of the union guys where driving by seeing if we were there. The list goes on and on..... and it happened very often. Not just once or twice. Being treated like second class people.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

I don't know. I was a non-union glazer, I wasn't making millions but was doing okay. I had a place to live, nice car and cash to party. Sometimes we worked on so-called "union sites". I will never forget that. We had to PAY a fee in order to be able to work. Where is the justice in that??? If we didn't pay we couldn't get the work contract because the union had to allow it. I also cannot remember how many times guys came up and said: "Where's your union card?" And then of course the running to the supervisor and calling all there buddies together in order to get us kicked of the job-site because we weren't union. And also not being able to work saturdays even if we were swamped because we had to have permission from the union we had to PAY in order to be able to work, not even being members. And on a couple of other job sites where we couldn't work during the week because they would threaten to do stuff to us or our vehicles so we had to work saturday and sunday, the supervisor letting us in and locking the gates behind us because they knew some of the union guys where driving by seeing if we were there. The list goes on and on..... and it happened very often. Not just once or twice. Being treated like second class people.

Its simple, don't scab. You and your contractor took work away from a union and union contracted glazier. I don't condone the threats, but I would have EASILY asked for your card. And if you didn't have one, Id have a BA down there in a second. Sounds like you were working for a union general contractor that hired you as a non-union shop. I blame the general contractor for that. I also blame the general contractor for being stupid enough to allow you past the gates. Your very presence on that site undermines everything we stand for in a union. Simply put, you were being treated like a second class person because you were oblivious enough to accept a second class job. You probably got prevailing wage on that job too, which you didn't earn. And before you say anything, there are PLENTY of non-union glazier jobs all around, building houses, strip malls, and other things.

They charged you because the union did the work of securing a fair set of standards, practices, and benefits for the job, and you coming into that job completely blows them off, while you and your glazier contractor take the benefit of the unions work. And the union was right to charge you. If the job meant that much to you, and you took that kind of pride in it, you would have been in the union on that job to begin with. But the whole tone of your posts suggests to me that it was nothing more than a paycheck to you.

So, because you wanted to know the justice of that, you answer me this, where is the justice in someone like you and your contractor coming in thru the back gate, undermining the work the union and its rank and file put in to secure a decent job, and taking all the benefits of that job without earning them? Answer me that........

[1997Canadian3.8]

Re: new job

Mogobs, youre making the points you're supposed to. The union brainwash is as expected, you are standing up for a union because they stand up for you. Das Boot hit the nail on the head. It is a "Us vs you" attitude displayed by most Unions. Of course a scab will piss off all the union guys, but sabotage and threats? It happens a ton, sabotage happens in factories daily; some one is working too hard, some plug comes and damages his machine because it makes them all have to work hard.

As for the house comment, don't judge a book by its cover. I've worked in a Union, had first hand experience, I've dealt with far too many "its not in my job description" claims.

Ever been part of an arbitration? Negotiations with unions and lawyers? It's absolute bull **** You would be disgusted at the things a union will stand up for. Teachers sexually abusing kids and, the union stands up for them... I have plenty of examples. They fight for the wrong things, display enough greed of their own and lobby the government in insanely aggressive ways. I said unions don't have a place in today's labor relations because on a weekly basis im a part of arbirtations and I see the time and resources they waste trying to stand up for their, overpaid, undereducated employees who have a strong sense of entitlement.

The manager makes more money, drives a nicer car and lives in a bigger house because he has more pressure, higher people to answer too and more responsibilities. All that equates to a higher pay cheque.

Hate to break it to you, but there has to be rich and their has to be poor. The utopian union world of no education, but benefits and money to raise a family is a joke. Unions put themselves out of work, higher wages cost a company money and they less profits aren't competitive. It's simple business, but you wouldn't understand because "you're on the other side"

[DAS BOOT]

Re: new job

Electrical construction is FAR FAR too broad to have one person capable of doing it all. It involves everything from programming a Cisco switch to installing high tension transmission power lines. No one person in this country could do everything and all of it inbetween, which is why we have classifications. I am classified as a Communications Journeyman. I have been trained on low voltage systems, including telecom, fiber optics, high end card access and security, fire alarm systems, AV installations and programming for it all. Im not trained nor have I had training in high voltage systems. My classification doesn't necessitate that. My pay and classification represents the training Ive had. We dont have "MPF's", simply because one person couldn't possibly know everything there is to know about everything requiring electricity. The guy from the local power company and I might be in the same union, but he's not going to come into an MDF and start fusion splicing fiber optic strands, nor am I going to shove myself into a transformer enclosure and start trimming out live three-phase transformers.....hence the classification.

Don't sell yourself short. If the mind can concieve and believe you can achieve.

I work on an aircraft that has 400 AC and some 270V DC systems, the aircraft produces 1450 KVa of power. I have run, trimmed and terminated powerfeeders, I ahve drilled holes to a 0.003" tolerance through carbon fiber/titanium stackups, I have worked installed components and run and installed lines on a 5,000 psi hydraulic system. I work with fiber optic cable. As for software, I am actually one of the software/config loaders on my crew. I configure, and load software. I also get to work with Avionics, troubleshooting VHF and HF systems mainly. I also got to workon the tail skid radio altimeter recently. Also tonight, I even went as far as signed of checklist verifying there was handsoap, TP, and tapons in the bathrooms, and the potable water system was serviced. I have had to do full inspections on first time we run engines, up and recently we have proven our tests are designed to cause a failure if one is possible. Recently I worked to hang a 15,000 lbs jet engine, using bolts that are worth more then all of my cars. blah blah blah blah blah....

Hopefully this week I will finish up my tow cert to be able to run a half million dollar tug to pull around $180 million dollar airplanes.

Now that are **** swinging contest is over....

I do admit we don't repair fiber optic we replace it we don't allow room for error.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

Mogobs, youre making the points you're supposed to. The union brainwash is as expected, you are standing up for a union because they stand up for you. Das Boot hit the nail on the head. It is a "Us vs you" attitude displayed by most Unions. Of course a scab will piss off all the union guys, but sabotage and threats? It happens a ton, sabotage happens in factories daily; some one is working too hard, some plug comes and damages his machine because it makes them all have to work hard.

As for the house comment, don't judge a book by its cover. I've worked in a Union, had first hand experience, I've dealt with far too many "its not in my job description" claims.

Ever been part of an arbitration? Negotiations with unions and lawyers? It's absolute bull **** You would be disgusted at the things a union will stand up for. Teachers sexually abusing kids and, the union stands up for them... I have plenty of examples. They fight for the wrong things, display enough greed of their own and lobby the government in insanely aggressive ways. I said unions don't have a place in today's labor relations because on a weekly basis im a part of arbirtations and I see the time and resources they waste trying to stand up for their, overpaid, undereducated employees who have a strong sense of entitlement.

The manager makes more money, drives a nicer car and lives in a bigger house because he has more pressure, higher people to answer too and more responsibilities. All that equates to a higher pay cheque.

Hate to break it to you, but there has to be rich and their has to be poor. The utopian union world of no education, but benefits and money to raise a family is a joke. Unions put themselves out of work, higher wages cost a company money and they less profits aren't competitive. It's simple business, but you wouldn't understand because "you're on the other side"

This makes sense only in theory, and is proven to be wrong in almost every instance in reality. Most union trademen are trained and educated in an apprenticeship. Union teachers usually have bachelors degrees. Alot of the factory workers I see in the UAW that aren't in assembly had formal schooling to trade school to do their job. To say these people are uneducated is an admittance of ignorance. And the "us vs them" attitude isn't towards my employer. We work WELL together, have for a long time. And if my employer and their employees wouldn't be worth what we do, we wouldn't have accounts with corporate offices like HSBC, Walgreens, Verizon, several universities....the list goes on.....

I work on an aircraft that has 400 AC and some 270V DC systems, the aircraft produces 1450 KVa of power. I have run, trimmed and terminated powerfeeders, I ahve drilled holes to a 0.003" tolerance through carbon fiber/titanium stackups, I have worked installed components and run and installed lines on a 5,000 psi hydraulic system. I work with fiber optic cable. As for software, I am actually one of the software/config loaders on my crew. I configure, and load software. I also get to work with Avionics, troubleshooting VHF and HF systems mainly. I also got to workon the tail skid radio altimeter recently. Also tonight, I even went as far as signed of checklist verifying there was handsoap, TP, and tapons in the bathrooms, and the potable water system was serviced. I have had to do full inspections on first time we run engines, up and recently we have proven our tests are designed to cause a failure if one is possible. Recently I worked to hang a 15,000 lbs jet engine, using bolts that are worth more then all of my cars. blah blah blah blah blah....

All of which is limited to aircraft. Might be some practical use that could be used on a car, but its all limited to aircraft. And Im almost certain the power isn't live when you're messing with its power systems. Any monkey can pull cable, try trimming it when its live. Not to mention, you don't have to worry about things like distance and resistance change to that distance, seeing as no aircraft you work on anytime soon is going to be more than 240' in length.

Your job is definitely important Eric, but it is limited to aircraft. Lets not sit here and think we could do each others job. I can't do yours, and you sure as **** cant do mine.;)

Hate to break it to you, but there has to be rich and their has to be poor. The utopian union world of no education, but benefits and money to raise a family is a joke.

This is exactly why Im in a union, and why Im so passionate about it. When people that sit on top of the hill piss down and tell us to accept it, I simply wont.

[DAS BOOT]

Re: new job

All of which is limited to aircraft.

Hydraulic systems, actuators, electric actuators, rigging, pumps, water cooled electronics, software driven fuel systems, with numerous valves, pressures pumps with fiber optic networking, Heavy structures, Non destructive testing, etc...

Its based on mechanical work, but nowhere near just aircraft. Rollercoasters, robotics, firetrucks, garbage trucks, race teams, satelites, defense systems, and just about any and all heavy industrial systems.


Wiring is one of the most critical systesm on an aircraft, majority of it. It is designed to be lightweight, but needs to be able to handle intense chemical exposure, vibration, high temps, low temps, corrosion, and most important, last 30-40 years being in these enviroments.

Did you know the cost to rewire a typical 747, costs more then to buy a brand new 747?

FWIW the plane is normally always powered on for all troubleshooting, which is my primary function, that and change mods.

I am not saying, you can do my job, or I can do yours, I am simple stating, you can do more then just one thing if you apply yourself.



As for your comment, you don't want those guys pissing down on you...


Once again, "Us vs. Them"


I use my actions and abilities to prove my worth, I do my job, and I do it well. I also go above and beyond. My worth is proven, my bosses do everything they can to keep me, including paying me more and making my life easier.

Have you ever had any sort of supervisory position?

[adrummer02L78]

Re: new job

Its simple, don't scab. You and your contractor took work away from a union and union contracted glazier. I don't condone the threats, but I would have EASILY asked for your card. And if you didn't have one, Id have a BA down there in a second. Sounds like you were working for a union general contractor that hired you as a non-union shop. I blame the general contractor for that. I also blame the general contractor for being stupid enough to allow you past the gates. Your very presence on that site undermines everything we stand for in a union. Simply put, you were being treated like a second class person because you were oblivious enough to accept a second class job. You probably got prevailing wage on that job too, which you didn't earn. And before you say anything, there are PLENTY of non-union glazier jobs all around, building houses, strip malls, and other things.

They charged you because the union did the work of securing a fair set of standards, practices, and benefits for the job, and you coming into that job completely blows them off, while you and your glazier contractor take the benefit of the unions work. And the union was right to charge you. If the job meant that much to you, and you took that kind of pride in it, you would have been in the union on that job to begin with. But the whole tone of your posts suggests to me that it was nothing more than a paycheck to you.

So, because you wanted to know the justice of that, you answer me this, where is the justice in someone like you and your contractor coming in thru the back gate, undermining the work the union and its rank and file put in to secure a decent job, and taking all the benefits of that job without earning them? Answer me that........

Okay, well because I was not union I have no right to work??? And do not insult me about my work, that was completely uncalled for and totally out of line. And do not call me a "scab"..... I was damn good at my job and am fully aware of that. So basically you are saying that only union guys have the right to work??? So how is that fair??? It was not a second class job as I stated before I did very well and was very skilled and I enjoyed it. The justice in having to come through the back gate?? You ask that? Answer me then where is the justice in treating others like dirt just because they aren't in your group?? Where is the justice in trying to deny others the right to a decent job?? Where is the justice in forcing others to have to use the back gate just because they are not a part of a union?? I took no benefits whatsoever from the union, I had to pay them. Your reasoning is that because I was non union I have no right to work. Why do you assume that only union jobs treat their workers good?? Why do you assume that union companies have first dibs on everything and should always be in the first place??..... That sounds quite unjust.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

Hydraulic systems, actuators, electric actuators, rigging, pumps, water cooled electronics, software driven fuel systems, with numerous valves, pressures pumps with fiber optic networking, Heavy structures, Non destructive testing, etc...

Its based on mechanical work, but nowhere near just aircraft. Rollercoasters, robotics, firetrucks, garbage trucks, race teams, satelites, defense systems, and just about any and all heavy industrial systems.

But have you worked on any of these outside of an aircraft?

Wiring is one of the most critical systesm on an aircraft, majority of it. It is designed to be lightweight, but needs to be able to handle intense chemical exposure, vibration, high temps, low temps, corrosion, and most important, last 30-40 years being in these enviroments.

The same is true for any outdoor electrical installation. And they usually have to last longer than 30-40 years.

FWIW the plane is normally always powered on for all troubleshooting, which is my primary function, that and change mods.

Troubleshooting a live electrical system is completely different than what I had explained. Im talking about union electricians landing everything from your basic 120V single phase to your house all the way up to 26kV (thats 26,000 volts) to primary customers, similar to what you would see in skyscrapers and large building complexes that will use a customers own transformer to step down. It has to be done live, can't turn it off. Its a very dangerous job, one I have not been trained nor never will be trained to do. These guys earn their money, not something Id want to do. You're wearing full rubber and a face shield, arc resistant clothing. Its not a $12 an hour job.

I am not saying, you can do my job, or I can do yours, I am simple stating, you can do more then just one thing if you apply yourself.

I think you underestimate the scope of work I do. I don't just install the **** per someones direction, or read someones instructions. Like I said, any monkey can screw a can on the wall. You have to make it work to the application in which you've installed it. Every application is unique, every customer wants something different, every system is proprietary. And this is just security. You can sit down for months and just read the manuals and you won't have a grasp of it all. And then once you do that, you have to know the building code of whatever municipality you're working in. You then factor in the customers wants and needs. Its alot to grasp. Its not all the same. Its not about applying yourself, you have to come to the realization that when you do what I do, you won't know it all. You never will. I may have one classification, but that classification covers a VERY large scope of work, one that no one will know everything about. And the fact is, Ive been trained not only by the union, but trained in certain proprietary systems, by the manufacturers, through the company I work for. And the only way I would have gotten this training under the conditions in which I got it was from being union trained.

As for your comment, you don't want those guys pissing down on you...


Once again, "Us vs. Them"

That depends on what you mean by "them". Im not against anyone in my company. Im not at odds with any NECA contractor that is a signatory thru the IBEW. I have no need to be. I make my pay, and the owner of my company is a millionaire himself. He does his job, collects the fruit of his labor, and every union member in his company gets a FAIR SHARE of the pie. His company is very competitive in price, between union and non-union contractors alike. And he has the advantage of having union trained techs, programmers, managers and installers. And I earn my FAIR SHARE from the time I put into doing what I do, what Ive been trained from school, and because I have applied myself.

What I am against is people who think they can take everything from a company and leave its employees to starve on the minimum wage they give them. Im against spoiled Canadian brats who don't know what its like to be poor, living on government assistance and STILL working 40 hours a week. Im against the people who don't have enough moral fiber to understand that its repulsive and disgraceful to earn riches on the backs of the poor. Im against douchenozzles that think because you have a ****ty piece of parchment on the wall in an ugly plastic frame from an overpriced school, they have the right to exploit people that weren't quite as fortunate.

No union member is asking to be millionaires off what we do. We're asking for our fair share. A $20 million dollar a year salary to a CEO, with a group of upper end managers raking in $10 million a year each, while the companies employees barely make enough money to come to work the next day isn't a fair share scenario. Its exploitation.

I use my actions and abilities to prove my worth, I do my job, and I do it well. I also go above and beyond. My worth is proven, my bosses do everything they can to keep me, including paying me more and making my life easier.

Do you make as much as your union counterparts?

Have you ever had any sort of supervisory position?

Ive been a foreman on several jobs. We keep costs in mind, but the difference between union and non-union is that when we look at cutting costs, the last place we look is labor. Its usually the first in a non-union atmosphere.

But Eric, you NEVER did answer my questions....

So when your bosses come down and require you to take a 30% paycut, while they drive home in a Maserati or Ferrari, are you going to tell yourself its to keep the company competitive? Are you going to sit back and get **** on like that if the situation arises? Lemme tell you something, if your company starts taking losses due to competition, your managers aren't going to come out of their office and ask you what they should do. They're just going to start cutting where they can cut, and they start with labor. If the upper echelon of management and stockholders gave a **** about you and your coworkers opinions to make their company more efficient, you'd be running the company, wouldn't you?

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

Okay, well because I was not union I have no right to work???

You certainly do not have the right to work, just not wherever you want. You and your contractor undermind the efforts put in by the union to secure that jobsite.

So basically you are saying that only union guys have the right to work???

Not even close. You can certainly work, but again, not anywhere you or your contractor want. Your contractor could have easily found work at a non-union build site. They are out there. Your contractor made the ill-choice of trying to make money off a union build site.

And do not call me a "scab"

You're a scab. You passed thru a union gate. I don't blame you for getting that job there, I blame your contractor for that, but I do blame you for physically showing up on site.

The justice in having to come through the back gate?? You ask that?

I sure do. Which I have yet to get an answer.....

Answer me then where is the justice in treating others like dirt just because they aren't in your group??

I don't condone the behavior that was given to you. As I said, if I knew you were non-union on a union job site, I wouldn't even confront you except to ask for your card. And if you didn't have one, Id call my business agent. I have no reason to threaten or harrass you. I have more productive and effective ways of keeping you off a union site....

Where is the justice in trying to deny others the right to a decent job??

We didn't deny you employment with your contractor. You were still able to work for him.

Where is the justice in forcing others to have to use the back gate just because they are not a part of a union??

You shouldn't have been on that site at all. Back gate or not. Your contractor was the one that was out of line. He bid on a job that the unions secured, and he thought you would be fine working along side us. The general contractor was stupid enough to sign a contract with your contractor, knowing full well that it was a union site.

I took no benefits whatsoever from the union, I had to pay them.

Thats because your contractor kept that difference in money for himself. Why would he pay you more or give you benefits when he can lowball all union contractors by just a little bit, and keep that difference for himself?

Your reasoning is that because I was non union I have no right to work.

Wrong. The unions never kept you from being employed by your contractor.

Your reasoning is that because I was non union I have no right to work.

I never said that.

Why do you assume that union companies have first dibs on everything and should always be in the first place??

I didn't say that either.

Ok, now that I have answered each one of your questions individually, you care to answer mine now??

[vanbibber]

Re: new job

can i have a pony?

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

can i have a pony?

Are you going to give it rides on YOUR back?....:D

[adrummer02L78]

Re: new job

[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]You certainly do not have the right to work, just not wherever you want. You and your contractor undermind the efforts put in by the union to secure that jobsite.[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]

Undermine the efforts... hahahaaaa the union didn't secure the job we did because they wanted 3 times the money and would take twice as long, therefore, we got the job. Were does it say in the law that I cannot work wherever I want???


[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]Not even close. You can certainly work, but again, not anywhere you or your contractor want. Your contractor could have easily found work at a non-union build site. They are out there. Your contractor made the ill-choice of trying to make money off a union build site.[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]

Wrong again. Last time I checked there was nothing in the law stating that I did not have the right to work wherever I chose. And just because some unions worked there does not mean it is a "union" build site. Just as the union could have found work on a different non union job site. As they did very often in new home construction.



[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]You're a scab. You passed thru a union gate. I don't blame you for getting that job there, I blame your contractor for that, but I do blame you for physically showing up on site.[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]

And then well I guess that according to that logic it would make union guys - as they used to say "union pigs", making as much as possible for as little work as possible. Last time I checked there was no such property law saying a union owned the rights to a territory on which a construction project was taking place, therefore if I am legally employed I can be present there.


[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]You shouldn't have been on that site at all. Back gate or not. Your contractor was the one that was out of line. He bid on a job that the unions secured, and he thought you would be fine working along side us. The general contractor was stupid enough to sign a contract with your contractor, knowing full well that it was a union site.[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]

The unions did not secure the job we did which is why we were doing it.We got the contract whether they liked it or not. There again the general contractor is not obligated by any law to work only with union companies.


[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]Thats because your contractor kept that difference in money for himself. Why would he pay you more or give you benefits when he can lowball all union contractors by just a little bit, and keep that difference for himself?[QUOTE=Mogobs30th;1031341]

And the general estimate was lower than union contracts so he was not keeping all the extra money for himself. We were able to do the exact same job quicker and cheaper and we all made money on it. I also had benefits. It isn't hard to place a lower bid than most union contractors. As I heard from many builders, to get an idea of union contracts take a normal company's estimate and then triple the price and double the time line.

Ok, now that I have answered each one of your questions individually, you care to answer mine now??

I already did a few times, but since you haven't caught it I will reiterate. There is no law saying that I cannot work where I choose as long as I am a legal tax paying American citizen. There is no law saying I cannot work on a job-site whether it is union or not. I have just as much right to the job as anyone else - just because a certain group of people feel they are entitled more than others doesn't make it so and doesn't make it right or legal.

[4thgenowner]

Re: new job

I flip switches, do mechanical checks outside and routinely handle multi-million dollar equipment, make $56.78 an hour and I'm part of a union. :poke::spank:

[Mogobs30th]

Re: new job

There again the general contractor is not obligated by any law to work only with union companies.

Wrong. If that general contractor signed a signatory contract stating they are using union labor, they are contractually and lawfully obligated to use union subcontractors, unless the specified work cannot reasonably be done by said union subcontractors. "Reasonably" in this case would basically mean that they simply couldn't find a contractor in the nation to do the work, regardless of cost or time frame.

Were does it say in the law that I cannot work wherever I want???

There is no such law. Again, we are not stopping your employer from hiring you. The whole thing is your contractors fault. Its not yours. But because you showed up on a union site, being non-union yourself, again, if the general contractor signed a signatory contract to use union labor, and he hires a non-union glazier, that general contractor is in breach of contract with every union subcontractor on site. We, as union members and union contractors, have the right to walk off site and put the job to a halt.

And just because some unions worked there does not mean it is a "union" build site.

That would depend if the general contractor signed a signatory contract. If they did, it makes it a union site. Period.

It isn't hard to place a lower bid than most union contractors.

You can place a bid to whatever you want. I see lower non-union bids passed over constantly when Im working remodels and stuff where the general contractor can hire whoever they want. They still go union, because union is trained appropriately. Ive also seen non-union win bids over union shops......and after those non-union contractors are gone, the **** starts falling apart, and they have to pay a premium price now for a union contractor to come in and fix it all. Its what Im currently doing right now at Walgreens Corporate HQ. They hired a non-union contractor to do their security and card access system work that they needed. It was installed so poorly, that half the system doesn't even work, its electrically dead. They broke numerous NEC codes, running low voltage wiring shared with 277V lighting. Ive been laughing for 2 months trying to fix it all. It came down to having to install a whole new system in 3 of their buildings. They spent more money having to use two contractors, us and the previous contractor, and had no warranty on the work from the previous contractor.
They could have hired us from the beginning, saved money, and had a 1 year maintenance and installation warranty, for literally THOUSANDS of dollars less than what they've spent. They got what they paid for the first time around, fast and cheap. NONE of it was actually right to begin with.

Do we as a union cost more?....of course. We're the premium product. The customer could buy the non-union brand for $40, or they can buy the union brand for $100. But if the non-union brand falls apart after a year, and you buy another one, and it falls apart, well then it really wasn't worth the money saved was it? You guys can have fast and cheap all you want. I have no issues with that. I'll install the **** right the first time, and you won't see me again.

And then well I guess that according to that logic it would make union guys - as they used to say "union pigs", making as much as possible for as little work as possible. Last time I checked there was no such property law saying a union owned the rights to a territory on which a construction project was taking place, therefore if I am legally employed I can be present there.

Which is true. If you are hired by a general contractor, you have free will to go on that job site. And as a union member hired by a general contractor who signed a signatory contract, I and my fellow brotherhood have the right to freely walk the **** off that job site and stop work. I'll guarantee that general contractor doesn't want a work stoppage. If it comes down to shelling out tens of thousands of dollars a day to keep equipment on site that isn't running, payroll, and the soon to come lawsuits for breach of contract, then I'll tell you what that general contractor is going to do. Generally, they would nullify your contract, hire the union contractor at probably 75% more than what you cost, and have to deal with the lawsuit coming from your contractor for breaching THEIR contract together. ITS STILL CHEAPER to hire the union contractor from the start.

As I heard from many builders, to get an idea of union contracts take a normal company's estimate and then triple the price and double the time line.

A premium product/service requires a premium price. But double the time? I doubt that.

Do you ever think that its not because we're union that we have work, but maybe its because we know what the **** we're doing and are pretty good at it? Or are you so dumb to believe that all union workers are fat pigs that sit around mouthbreathing and collecting a check?

[adrummer02L78]

Re: new job

unless the specified work cannot reasonably be done by said union subcontractors. "Reasonably" in this case would basically mean that they simply couldn't find a contractor in the nation to do the work, regardless of cost or time frame.

Now that is not a very good definition of reasonable at all in any logical context of the word.... Actually sounds quite unreasonable.

[/QUOTE]Do you ever think that its not because we're union that we have work, but maybe its because we know what the **** we're doing and are pretty good at it? Or are you so dumb to believe that all union workers are fat pigs that sit around mouthbreathing and collecting a check?[/QUOTE]

And there you go calling names again for some reason...... I never said I hate unions or union workers, I simply mentioned a few situations I personally had to deal with and the fact that everyone has a right to work whether or not they are union. That just because I was not union does not mean I did not take pride in my work and do a top notch job. Just because I was not union does not mean I did not know what the hell I was doing. I won't even go into all the crap I had to fix after union glazers, so lets not even go there. I never said I walked on and took somebody elses job over, although there were a few where union contracts were terminated and we took over because they could not get their sh** done on time or correctly. How many times on different sites we were called in to maintenance their work..... The plain and simple difference here is I do not care who they hire as long as they are American citizens legally working, where you seem to want to narrow it down even further and place everyone else behind the union guys.