Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

[2.8 Bird]

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/...num-Heads.aspx


Thoughts, comment...

They are pretty pricey.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

They have been around for awhile. I looked at getting a set long time ago but they are pricey as hell and don't offer sufficient gains for there price tag.

Looks like it is zzp's last set since they probably didn't really sell any...

[2.8 Bird]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Yeah, it's not much of a gain compare to the iron one, but I'm sure if you have mods it makes it more efficient.

Plus aluminum dissipate heat better and doesn't get heat soaked as much.

It would be so nice if these were cheaper.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

ya, they could have made some good money I think if they brought the prices down to sell more units to cover the R&D costs that way, but oh well

[CFreed11]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Funny you post something about these... ZZP just posted something yesterday on facebook about bringing them back..

[htmabe]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Sorry but the only gain here is the weight savings that's it. A well ported iron set will flow the same if not better and they're stronger. Sure it would be nice to lose forty pounds of cg but not 4000 nice. Plus with aluminum there's that whole "core shift" thing going on during manufacturing. Aluminum heads also dissipate heat much faster than iron heads. This rapid heat loss from the combustion chamber results in reduced combustion chamber pressures (where as heat equals pressure); similar to the effect that lowering the compression ratio which lowers cylinder pressure. When switching to aluminum heads you MUST raise the compression ratio to prevent a power loss. Gotta admit though they do look awesome

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Sorry but the only gain here is the weight savings that's it. A well ported iron set will flow the same if not better and they're stronger. Sure it would be nice to lose forty pounds of cg but not 4000 nice. Plus with aluminum there's that whole "core shift" thing going on during manufacturing. Aluminum heads also dissipate heat much faster than iron heads. This rapid heat loss from the combustion chamber results in reduced combustion chamber pressures (where as heat equals pressure); similar to the effect that lowering the compression ratio which lowers cylinder pressure. When switching to aluminum heads you MUST raise the compression ratio to prevent a power loss. Gotta admit though they do look awesome

No...

[2.8 Bird]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Yeah, there are turbo hybrid 3.4's running in the low 11 sec. and one of our members with a hybrid 3.1 V6 soon to be in the 11 sec.

I like to see what our force inducted 3.8 can do with these. Too bad GM didn't make one. I read somewhere about 10 years ago or so they did have plans for it, but they decided to phase out the buick 3.8.

[htmabe]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

I'm only trying to point out a less expensive alternative. A bigger bang for the buck. No is weak but facts are facts. I know from a flow bench what my heads flow and how much it cost to get them there. In my wildest dreams it didn't approach 4000.The projected flow numbers are not always the same as what you receive especially with aluminum. When you flow aluminum heads right out of box sometimes you get the advertised flow numbers most of the time you don't, this is due to core shift yes it happens during the molding process, not no but yes it really does happen. Flow benches don't tell lies.There's some other issues with aluminum also but with no as a response i'll leave you in the dark. Those 11 second cars sponsored by the company selling parts is going to run the best set of heads that company can produce. There're gonna flow every set till they find the best 2 ,those are the 2 they will advertise, they're not gonna tell you anything else.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

No I am just to tired and busy to get into this argument.

and no, you're not pointing out "the best bang for your buck" less expensive alternative.

You said:

Sorry but the only gain here is the weight savings that's it

That is false. The aluminum heads flow more than the cast iron counter parts. They are running larger valves than anything available on the market at 1.96 for the intake side...second to that is a 1.9" valve which is the largest, I know, I ran it.

When you flow aluminum heads right out of box sometimes you get the advertised flow numbers most of the time you don't, this is due to core shift yes it happens during the molding process, not no but yes it really does happen. Flow benches don't tell lies.There's some other issues with aluminum also but with no as a response i'll leave you in the dark.

I really highly doubt this. If aluminum heads were this volatile GM would not use it in every LSX high performance engine they build.

There're gonna flow every set till they find the best 2 ,those are the 2 they will advertise

you're talking less than a 1% discrepancy

A well ported iron set will flow the same if not better

No they won't and if memory serves me correctly, going to aluminum allowed us to run a bigger intake valve (hence the 1.96") but I would need to go back over my notes to verify this, and I'm too tired for that

Sure it would be nice to lose forty pounds of cg but not 4000 nice

Agreed they are over priced, but you are getting a lot more than 40lbs savings. You can run much higher compression with less risk of detonation on aluminum.

When switching to aluminum heads you MUST raise the compression ratio to prevent a power loss. Gotta admit though they do look awesome

you don't have to raise it, but it allows you to run more compression and remain safe. You're stupid if you don't raise compression and you will make more money over the iron counterpart

[htmabe]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

First off wow gm has you brain washed. Gm builds grocery getters if we're talking high performance then it's on us we turn them into race cars. Aluminum is highly better for grocery getters all day long hands down no argument. Yes they build high performance LSX motors with a 15% discrepancy not 1%. I'm running cheap generic manley 1.94's,yup they fit, with some expensive 130# springs which outflow OUT OF THE BOX 1.96 aluminum grocery getter heads all day long but I'm in the 1500 dollar range. That is bang for your buck, outflow, less money, stronger. Valve size helps with flow but there's a whole lot more in any pair of heads with some porting. Many nights this year I've finished races around 280 degrees. I'm thinking around 8 or 9 times. My thought is, cant prove it but aluminum would not stand up to that kind of beating EVER even with mls gaskets and arp studs which I use. Quick review in case I've lost ya, stronger, cheaper, better flowing equals a bigger bang for your buck. Only downside is weight and cg. Agreed it's hard to lose #40lbs off the front of the car. Argue any of that and all I can say is keep on drilling your fiberglass to lose weight, warp your aluminum heads and I'll see you at the back of the pack every night. Btw I'm 3rd in points and that includes going upside down on fire if not for that I'd be first for the 3rd year in a row but the seasons not over yet. One of the ways I do that is by always making sure I get the biggest bang for the buck regardless of what some guy who drills holes in fiberglass the lightest and strongest material used in our cars to lose weight says. When you can outflow, outperform, and outlast the competition for 2500 less that just frees up money to go to elsewhere better spent like tires. Nothing makes a car go faster on the track than new tires, nothing. If you wanna go fast buy tires forget heads all together but if you can do both don't buy something expensive that's not gonna work out in the long run. Just common sense really which can be applied to our cars.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

First off wow gm has you brain washed. Gm builds grocery getters if we're talking high performance then it's on us we turn them into race cars. Aluminum is highly better for grocery getters all day long hands down no argument.

I love how you think the LS1/2/3/6/7/9 are grocery getters...yes I must be brainwashed

I'm running cheap generic manley 1.94's,yup they fit, with some expensive 130# springs which outflow OUT OF THE BOX 1.96 aluminum grocery getter heads all day long but I'm in the 1500 dollar range

I wasn't aware you had a set of the aluminums at your flowbench disposal to even make that claim...please do tell me how you outflow the aluminums...

My thought is, cant prove it but aluminum would not stand up to that kind of beating EVER even with mls gaskets and arp studs which I use

This explains a lot

Quick review in case I've lost ya, stronger, cheaper, better flowing equals a bigger bang for your buck. Only downside is weight and cg. Agreed it's hard to lose #40lbs off the front of the car. Argue any of that and all I can say is keep on drilling your fiberglass to lose weight, warp your aluminum heads and I'll see you at the back of the pack every night

LOL.

Btw I'm 3rd in points and that includes going upside down on fire if not for that I'd be first for the 3rd year in a row but the seasons not over yet

Congrats? I don't know, this doesn't mean a whole lot to me or tell me much of anything...are you running in the grocery getter class?

Nothing makes a car go faster on the track than new tires, nothing.

Do you want to put money on that statement?


The only thing going for you is that the ones for us are over priced, everything else you have said is BS.

Hell, all the serious GNX guys have gone from cast iron to aluminum heads...I guess those 9 second grocery getters must be brainwashed to...

[htmabe]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Just keep drilling the lightest materials you can find and listen to no one but yourself that is a surefire formula to stay at the back of the pack. Can't even believe you were arrogant enough to argue tires. Guess all them idiots in nascar pit for nothing. You should let them know too. Again regardless of how much your unwillingness to learn is trust me nascars not wrong. Tires really make a huge difference. And yes I flow aluminum heads too they're no better just more money and not as strong.

[WarShrike]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

A skilled person can make the aluminum heads work for these cars, but you have to take a different approach than the cast iron head equipped engine. You need to run the coolant temps higher for one or you do lose some of that thermal efficiency. The rest of it comes down to habits and tuning for it properly.

Core shift does happen with cast aluminum blanks. Not so much an issue with fully CNC'd cylinder heads. For what ZZP is charging for theirs, I'm surprised they aren't CNC'd out of billet instead of cast, then finished with a CNC.

Another issue we run into with running big valves is the valves get shrouded, so you have to adjust the angle of the valves by angle milling the heads or clearance the combustion chamber and cylinder wall at the top above the top piston ring.

For a budget minded racer, cast, ported heads with bigger valves will work fine. The real money should be spent on a good cam that is spec'd for what your target is for the build.

That's why you've got stock eliminator guys running 11s and doing something like 300bhp out of their V6's on cams with lift that is essentially stock height (it's all in the lobe design).

For an all out car that is a money is not object type of thing, yeah I can see somebody going after the aluminum heads. Just like some of the FWD guys getting the Whipple blower or the COME stroker kits.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Aluminum Heads for our 3800??

Just keep drilling the lightest materials you can find and listen to no one but yourself that is a surefire formula to stay at the back of the pack. Can't even believe you were arrogant enough to argue tires. Guess all them idiots in nascar pit for nothing. You should let them know too. Again regardless of how much your unwillingness to learn is trust me nascars not wrong. Tires really make a huge difference. And yes I flow aluminum heads too they're no better just more money and not as strong.

You are completely ignorant of the fact that nascar has everything done to those cars-

I'm still waiting on your flow number comparison along with details on how it was tested.

A skilled person can make the aluminum heads work for these cars, but you have to take a different approach than the cast iron head equipped engine. You need to run the coolant temps higher for one or you do lose some of that thermal efficiency. The rest of it comes down to habits and tuning for it properly.

That is all part of proper setup...that's a 30 second swap of the T-stat and 3 clicks on hp tuners

Another issue we run into with running big valves is the valves get shrouded, so you have to adjust the angle of the valves by angle milling the heads or clearance the combustion chamber and cylinder wall at the top above the top piston ring.

All of which can be done on an aluminum head as well...

For a budget minded racer, cast, ported heads with bigger valves will work fine. The real money should be spent on a good cam that is spec'd for what your target is for the build.

I certainly don't disagree with you and I have said ZZP's heads are overpriced...but this guys argument is that cast iron heads perform better than aluminum tit for tat, and that they simply do not.