Labor Unions-helping or hurting the economy

[Mighty Thor]

I always wonder about Labor Unions. I notice that Arnold S. has a great plan for education by giving pay raises to teachers who earned it and not by seniority. And trimming down all those useless expenses. But Unions are taking him down.

3 years ago, grocery store workers went on strike. Ofcourse negotiation was reached. But this later resulted in closing some of grocery stores and incrreasing some of the prices just so pays can be negotiated.

GM and Ford is having difficulties with theirs. With all the demands for pay raise and fringe/health benefits that it forcing them to cancel some production cars and to trim down.

My dad's company 5 years ago went under a Union. Now they are facing massive layoff's. Instead of voting for 10% pay cut so that everybody can stay. They opt for layoff and keep their pay and benefits for the seniors there. This forced the company to cut back and increase their prices. While productivity is low.

I used to work for UPS and it is under a Union. I can say that the quality of work is not that great. Those hired a week before you gets to boss you around. Plus nobody gets fired for poor job performance. I've seen supervisors fist fighting and neither one got fired for it.

So I don't know if Union is good for anything anymore. I'm sure it is good for making sure that you get pay well and have all the necessary benefits, but are they going too far that it's hurting companies and the economy.

[JohnD.]

Unions aren't what they used to be. Now unions are only there to overpay lazy *** people to do their job.

[FirebirdGT]

This is one reason why US firms can not compete with off-shore firms.

I have too many US suppliers that make junk, and expect us to accept it, although it won't work. Off-shore don't think this way.

[SpeedingFirebird]

Originally posted by JohnD.:
Unions aren't what they used to be. Now unions are only there to overpay lazy *** people to do their job.

x2

[Fredless]

Here we go...another controverisal thread that will go no where.

This is going to be like a democrat vs republican thing.

I really would like to see this thread locked down because I bet a lot that post here are not even involved in labor unions and will just generalize a whole bunch of here-say. If you haven't had a union job, don't currently hold one, or manage in a unionized company...stay the hell out of here...Ignorance pisses me off...just like morons who ***** about Bush but don't vote. Believe me, I'm not a Bush fan, but he got re-elected and thats that...he's our president for another 4 years weather I like it or not. :D

Thor - Seniority keeps things equal...and your right, we do have no real incentive to work any harder than we're SUPPOSED to. However, I like my part time sup that I work for at UPS and I do give 110% when its needed. At UPS, if you do your time, you get your rewards. It keeps @$$ kissers out of the bunch because it does no good to kiss ***...I love my job and I'm a proud teamster.

MANAGEMENT creates unions. I'll throw my input in on this real quick. FedEx - why have they been able to keep the IBT out? Because they have treated their employees well and given them benefits and they obviously have management that isn't trying to screw the workers over...and they provide a safe work environment.

DHL - We are starting to assimilate DHL into us very nicely. Why? Because the companies each sub-contracted out DHL driver works for treats them like ***.

The Teamsters have bailed me out on crap I was accused of, but due to the stewards investigations, it was proven that I did not loose the cash envelope...or the C.O.D. envolope for the day. I was however accused of it, but it was in fact a low level sup that collected the COD envelopes at the end of the night that lost my COD envelope. UPS wanted to have me pay for EVERYONE of those money orders that I had supposedly lost...they wouldn't listen to me.

I said to my center manager, "This discussion is over. You know the Weingarten rights sir. I am walking out of this office unless a steward is present from this point on."

That was it...a steward was called in, and my case was started. They finally reviewed the security tapes and saw that I clearly deposited my envelope at the end of the day and I was let off the hook and my record cleared.

Working at a ****ty place like Wal-Mart for 2 years during high school and first half of my freshman year of college really made me appreciate my job at UPS and the Teamsters.

I have a friend that works for Tropicana Orange Juice down in Bradenton Florida...and they are being forced to lay off so many employees that only those with a lot of seniority are left. I have talked to her and the Teamsters are barely doing anything for them because Tropicana has basically said that we literally cannot afford anything else...pay has been cut, benefits have been cut because its been an "or-else" situation. They have forced overtime or you're fired, plain and simple. Not ALL places that are unionized have the company by the balls. The media is blowing this all out of proportion and a lot of people are scape goating the UAW employees.

Now - the greedy *******s who ruin it for everyone...yes I'll ramble on about the evil side of unions. There are people in UPS that just wait for sup's to screw up in any little way so that they can file a greivance on a technicallity and get paid for it. They also don't want to help in anyway with negotiations...HOWEVER, Do you think the corporate fat cats will cut their bonuses back either? I don't think so. Both sides are to blame in the Auto industry...the UAW keeps bleeding GM and Ford dry, but couple that with the big whigs not wanting to cut any of their money either and bad management decescions, you get a dying corporation...and everyone is going to lose.

[ianwells100]

just remember, unions are profit making businesses themselves... they're not purely interested in helping the 'worker'

[Fredless]

Originally posted by ianwells100:
just remember, unions are profit making businesses themselves... they're not purely interested in helping the 'worker'

That is a sad generalization...but I won't say that it does not exist.

[TheV6Bird]

Unions were certainly neccesary in the past, but have become less so today.

HOWEVER, Fred is right with it being a both sided issue. Some union workers want to be lazy and get paid while having job security, while some corporate upper management workers want to put as much money into their pocket as humanly possible; its a negative on both sides!

I think a lot of this stems from a mistrust of both sides. Where does this mistrust come from? I think it comes from wide seperation gap: Upper management sits in a totally different office area (sometimes a different building), interacting with only the office employees, while the union workers are down doing the labor.

Management needs to interact more with their workers. I don't mean be their best friends, but they need to have events that can allow management and the rest of the workers to mingle (cookouts?), or maybe have management tour the union workplaces (NOT in a white collar shirt and tie) and maybe eat lunch with the workers. Sure this sounds kind of retarded, but it could help bridge the social gap that increasingly widens from the mistrust of not knowing "the other side".

Bottom line: I don't think unions and management would have as many problems if management held some sort of company get together mingling events.

[Fredless]

Personally, I think my immediate supervisor is great. I would bend over backwards for her and do jumping jacks. She has been very fair to me and I've never once filed a greivance on her.

The OMSes I work with (low level sups in the offices) I like them all. I scratch their backs, they scratch mine. I've never had a problem with our center manager, except on one issue, and he is extremely friendly with me. If you are friendly with the managers at UPS, your life is a whole lot easier and I don't go through that tid for tat game a lot of the other workers go through.

When I start driving, I'm sure they will remember who didn't consistantly throw blue sheets at them (greivances) and back off on the loads I get.

Originally posted by TheV6Bird:
Unions were certainly neccesary in the past, but have become less so today.

I agree with you about unions not becoming a necessity today. In Florida, they are basically worthless...you technically don't have to be a union member to get all the same protection as it is a right to work state..However, it is a luxury...and like all luxuries you must pay for them. I have no problem paying my monthly 20 for union dues. It is a strictly voluntary luxury that I can remove myself from at anytime.

[shock_core]

so, how does all that work? like if ur in a union company but you aren't a part of the union? Can you not have greivances filed against you and stuff like that?

/please explain
//thanks :D

[Fredless]

I'll give an example and use UPS.

Basically, you can work for two companies (sort of) for United Parcel Service.

You can 1)be an hourly UNION employee ==>Your Drivers, Porters, Car washers, Mechanics, Clerks and package handlers.

2)You can be an salary UPS management employee ===>H.R., OMS, On road sup, part time sup, center manager, district, region, CEO, CIO etc..

Here is an example from the Master Agreement. A supervisor may NOT progess any package unless in the case of extreme emergency or strike.

There is a package down at the other side of the center and it needs to be address corrected. Sean, the supervisor decides to bring that package to the computer and address correct it himself. He knows that I am on the retain trailer, looking for a missorted package. He wants to get this package out of his hair and knows he could ask me to stop and do this for him now, however, he chooses to go ahead.

I see him do this. I write down the date, time and what I witnessed. I walk over to the union steward when he returns from his route and report this to him, explaining what I saw. He then gives me a grievance paper (they are blue with the Teamsters), and I explain my case on it.

My greivance goes through, on the grounds that Sean was taking away my job. There was no emergency, he just wanted to do something quickly...possibly as to not have to pay me overtime for the day. I now get paid for his time that he was there for the day...since it is assumed that he also took away other work from union employees. In a union job, managers and supervisors are there to do that..manage and supervise. Not work that union employees conduct.

Here is how it is abused. Sean noticed a package was on the wrong belt, he decides to move to the redbelt to the yellow to stop a missort. It was a two second "technical" violation. Mr.Jerkoff sees this and writes a greivance. Stupid crap like that ruins it for everyone in the end. Now what you get is a pissed off P/T sup who gets a bitter attitude towards everyone, costs the company a lot of money and then those same morons always want "more more more" and ***** about the contract getting worse each time it is re-negotiated.

[shock_core]

sounds like fun :\

In your example. Why would you file a greivance against the manager? hes just trying to help out. its not like hes firing you. I mean, correcting one package isn't going to hurt anybody.

[Fredless]

That's not the point. It is my job to do what he did, not his. He is to supervise, thats it.

He could have taken away over time from me...or what have you. The point is to keep them in check so they don't take away work on a mass scale. Its to make sure everyone gets their hours and to prevent lay offs.

I don't want them helping out. When trash is on the ground at UPS, it is the porters job to clean it up...no one elses. Everyone has a niche to fill, and they do it. Trust me, its WAY better than wal-mart or some other environment where you usually get those who do everything and those who don't do jack **** because they know someone else will do it for them.

[shock_core]

ah, kk, i sort of get it. lol

[Copperhead]

i work for chrysler...i would not work for them without a union if they paid me $50.00 bucks an hour...all unions aren't the same...the only negative thing about a union in my opinion is the generalize everybody...i could bust my *** for the whole 10hr shift i work...and joe blow could come in late and f-up every truck he worked on...and we get the same representation...everybody's the same. the problem with Gm and Ford..isn't unions..it's a week product lineup...Gm is hurting like hell...they ***** about healthcare and retirement pensions they have to pay for close to
50,000 people...they sure didn't ***** when those guys busted their *** for 30+ years to make Gm what it is today...you hired em..they did their part their whole lives...now take care of em...people complain that union workers are why cars are so expensive...union wages only make up for 3% of a vehicles cost...so when you buy a $30,000 dollar car..the company paid union workers $900 dollars to build it...we build on avg. close to 700 Dodge Rams a day...in my plant alone..there's 2 more of em as well...Chrysler employs 69,000 employees..last year the top 13 executives gave themselves bonuses...those bonuses were more than the 69,000 employees made all year combined..and those were just bonuses on top of their multi million dollar salaries...that's weird how we didn't get any raise last year...inflation is 3 to 4% year..we just got a 4yr contract...i'll break down our raises by year 1st.0% 2nd.0% 3rd.2% 4th.3%..so at the minumum stuff will cost 12% more in 4yrs than it does now...and i'll only be getting a 5% raise...greed is a little higher up the food chain than the guys and gals workin the assembly lines...