Abortion

[GrigoryRasputin]

Originally posted by Mighty Thor:
Lets look at it from a scientific perspective. When two gametes: sperm and egg merge, to form a zygote that is in fact a beginning of life. Anyone wants to argue that.

Conception, birth, elderly, to death is how life is process. Abortion is a direct killing, plain and simple. It is against God's or natural law, which ever you want to take. Imagine, what morality is in that or what morality you want to argue about it.

Let me ask you this, do you wish the woman that carried YOU in her womb in the first tri-master, ABORTED you?

Answer me this before you say anything else.

Thats a ridiculous argument - every bit of it. A.) there is conflicting scientific "proof" for every controversial policy issue that exists - so your proof can always be countered with my proof. The fact is - its a philosophical question.

Next if you removed the word killing and put in "termination" after direct I could accept that.
And, if we're going to discuss natural law - lets talk about natural rights too and how preventing abortions infringes on a person's natural right to do what they want with their body. As long as that embryo/fetus/parasite is in a parasitic relationship with the mother, it is part of the mother's body.

And theres no way to answer your question - its completely an insane question aimed at swaying the small minded. Obviously, if my mother had me aborted I would have no feelings on the issue b/c I would not exist. Therefore, there is no answer that can be given - either answer, in the positive or negative, would be based on illogic.
If I said yes, I wish i was aborted - that means I am trying to comprehend something that I can not - which is nonexistance.
If I said no, Im glad I wasnt aborted - I would be assuming an omnipotent position b/c I am saying the world is better off with my existance. I, in fact, have no idea what other options exist instead of existance. Therefore, I am not, nor is anyone, even the slightest bit qualified to answer that question.

[speedracer95v6]

I must say, you all are doing a good job at avoiding the real issue of my third option.

Some of us like to argue instead of removing the controversy I see.

[mjparme]

There are really only two stances on abortion:

1) You believe abortion ends a life and preempts any choice a women has because it is murder and therefore the state has an interest and can pass a law to prevent it.

2) You believe that a woman's choice to her own body preempts the babies right to life prior to a certain point in the pregnancy and therefore the state has no interest and cannot pass a law to prevent it.

Abortion is one of those things that people think "well if I don't like it then there should be a law against it."

It is possible, like myself, to find abortion distasteful but not think there should be a law against it.

You can argue all you want, someone who believes that abortion is murder is never going to change their mind about that. If you believe abortion should be illegal because you believe it is murder I have no problem with that and respect your stance. However, not everyone agrees it is murder so you should necessarily want to push your view on morality on everyone else through legislation.

[navyblue2000]

I stay out of political debates because it's about this time every four years I get sick of all the political and rhetoric BS. :rolleyes:

It's a woman's choice to do what she will with her body. THEN, After she has become pregnant, it's her RESPONSIBILITY to take care of the fetus/unborn child.

But then again, we live in a society where we can throw money at a problem and it goes away :rolleyes:

Am I uninformed? no. Will I spare myself time wasted by typing it all out so it'll be flamed by closed-minded "open minded" know it alls? You know it.

I'm Pro Life.

[Denis]

OK, a bit long so please be patient, this is a condensation of a paper that I wrote for a philosophy class.

Here are four possibilities concerning the legal status of abortion.

1. It's not murder and it's not illegal.
2. It is murder and it is illegal.
3. It's not murder but it's illegal.
4. It is murder but it's legal.

I don't think anyone would have any problems if either of the first two statements were true, so I'll address the last two.

I do not possess the knowledge to absolutely state without doubt that abortion is murder and I don't believe that anybody does. When does life truly begin and who makes that judgment? To me, that means that I must make my decision based on which of the final two possibilities is the lesser of two evils, since both present some moral quandary.

If it's not murder but it is illegal, then this denies a woman's right to choose; if it's murder and legal then this condones murder.

Now, since I don't know if it's murder, then I must choose to oppose abortion because the possibility that it is murder outweighs all other considerations, including the likelihood that it is an obstruction of an individual freedom.

$.02

[imported_admin]

I have a lot to say and not much time so I'll probably make several smaller posts in this thread.

Originally posted by Mighty Thor:
Lets look at it from a scientific perspective. When two gametes: sperm and egg merge, to form a zygote that is in fact a beginning of life. Anyone wants to argue that.

That's incorrect. The sperm and the egg are already alive. There is no "beginning" to life, it is a continuum.

Originally posted by Mighty Thor:
Let me ask you this, do you wish the woman that carried YOU in her womb in the first tri-master, ABORTED you?

How ironic, isn't it? The people against abortion are supposedly religious. Yet people with strong religious convictions know that this world is NOT the only world and that there is a wondrous afterlife. Therefore, death is not a bad thing. If anything, it is a blessing. Last time I checked, it was commonly believed that Heaven (or whatever you want to call it) is a much better place than this Earth. I'd rather be there than here.

Taken from that perspective, logically, the people who should be against abortion are the people that think this Earth is the only life you'll ever live--i.e. atheists. "Every child deserves a chance!" Seems to me that whoever says that believes this life is your only chance.

[Denis]

RE: Stefan's post

The next question is what happens if an infant dies before it is baptized? From my religous upbringing, you cannot enter heaven whle you still have the stain of the original sin on your soul.

[95fbirdkid]

I'm prochoice, not pro abortion. I feel people should be aloud to choose because it affects their life, not mine, so I dont feel I nor anyone else should be aloud to force someone to have the child.

Let me ask you this, do you wish the woman that carried YOU in her womb in the first tri-master, ABORTED you?

Well if you think about it if you were aborted you wouldnt really know it happened.

[TMGSIX]

Every human has the right to choose what is best for themselves. If a woman decides that she does not want to have a baby, then she has every right to have a safe abortion. Not only am I pro-choice and pr-abortion, but I am also for using the embryonic germ cells and fetal stem cells from these aborted fetal tissues for develpoment of potential therapies and cures for human diseases.

['98 BlackBird]

pro-choice

[imported_admin]

Originally posted by Denis:
RE: Stefan's post

The next question is what happens if an infant dies before it is baptized? From my religous upbringing, you cannot enter heaven whle you still have the stain of the original sin on your soul.

This is a technicality that not all religions agree on. Even Christians differ widely on this specific.

I happen to believe that an infant is innocent and God knows it. Baptism is a ritual and is largely symbolic. Let's say your wife has a baby and the following day there is a fire in the hospital and both her and the child dies--long before the baptism takes place. Does that child's soul then go to hell just because a pastor hasn't performed a special ritual? God knows the child did nothing wrong. Why should that child's soul suffer?

Aborted fetuses are the same way. If they have a soul, I'm sure God is smart enough to know that it wasn't THEIR fault they're getting aborted, therefore they wouldn't be punished.

[imported_admin]

Originally posted by GrigoryRasputin:
So you all hate the welfare mothers who sit at home and just make more babies. Shouldnt we lower the tax burden so we dont make any more poor people?

This is actually an invalid argument. Welfare trash pop out babies because they want the tax/welfare benefits. The more babies they have running around the more money the government gives them. Banning abortion would have no effect on these people.

Your other point about how many more people we would have in this country if abortion was outlawed is also flawed...

With abortion being illegal, people would take birth control a bit more seriously because there is no way out once you're knocked up.

So if we've had 30 million abortions in the past three decades, I doubt there would have been 30 million people born if it had never been legalized.

[memphis_raines]

Stefan, you talk about the "religious" people and that death is a blessing. The reason the religious people are against abortion is because they have enough sense to know it's wrong to f*cking kill people. I agree with you on a lot of things, but not here.

And all you penis leeches who are comparing an unborn child to your crap and saying that it's nothing but a collection of cells....biologically speaking, that's all YOU are too. So does that mean it would be okay for somebody to suck YOUR brains out? Well, I take that back. If you're pro-abortion, obviously someone has already sucked your brains out.....

My take on abortion is this....It is nothing more than legalized murder. If you abort a child, you are a murderer, plain and simple. You're no better than people like Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer. A killer is a killer.

It really pisses me off to see younger people these days that think of abortion as nothing more than a way to get out of taking responsibility for their actions. It's a human life we're talking about, not some damn stray dog somebody dumped on you.

[GrigoryRasputin]

Originally posted by Stefan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GrigoryRasputin:
So you all hate the welfare mothers who sit at home and just make more babies. Shouldnt we lower the tax burden so we dont make any more poor people?

This is actually an invalid argument. Welfare trash pop out babies because they want the tax/welfare benefits. The more babies they have running around the more money the government gives them. Banning abortion would have no effect on these people.

Your other point about how many more people we would have in this country if abortion was outlawed is also flawed...

With abortion being illegal, people would take birth control a bit more seriously because there is no way out once you're knocked up.

So if we've had 30 million abortions in the past three decades, I doubt there would have been 30 million people born if it had never been legalized. </font>[/QUOTE]I was actually talking about the wonderful options abortion gives us for population control - especially in lower classes.

And there is no reason to believe that people would take birth control any more seriously.... "it could never happen to me" whether its a car accident so they dont wear a seat belt or a pregnancy so they dont use any form of birth control. And of course its rather ignorant to believe if abortions are illegal they'll never happen....

[Denis]

I was actually talking about the wonderful options abortion gives us for population control - especially in lower classes.

Jonathan Swift : A Modest Proposal