GM finally cutting back in the right areas

[shenanigans]

Originally posted by BLLDOGG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shenanigans:
btw that cut is only a $2.40 cent an hour cut in pay.

IT ain't the 30s where the companies were exploiting the workers...

Employees that do not know a trade and do not have a college education should not be making $60k a year.

skill trades start at $25 an hour </font>[/QUOTE]tell that to my technicians at work who are educated and highly skilled but only get payed around 20bucks an hour and work a lot harder and in more dangerous and stressful conditions.

any high school grad can work an assembly line. dont even get me started on benifits </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly....


I know alot of people hate this crap, but I hate this whole "minimum wage bull****" and "so and so cannot live off of $25-30k. You know what? I know that first hand.

But guess what I am making $25k as a highschool grad and working fecking part time. Got the job on my own, not handed to me, and was highered with no degree or skill.

Its hard to and people cannot live off of it. But if you want to live comfortably and have a family GET A REAL JOB!. I have a slight bit of a trade under my belt, and work it on the side, and get paid $32 an hour to do it. I rarely do it, but if I wanted too, I could jump into it full time and start a business out of it. But don't plan to.


I understand you can't live off of minimum wage, but I also think a grown person working a fulltime job should not be flipping burgers like a 16 year old kid does on the weekends as their only job.


As for the assembly line workers. Come on, not trying to step on peoples toes, but its an unskilled job. Perfect example go watch like 8 mile the movie where Eminem is pressing bumpers. Your telling me something like that requires $60k a year?


I understand there are positions in the factories that are skilled but most of them are not.

[shenanigans]

btw offhand anyone wonder why large corporations are outsourcing jobs anywhere in the world but the US?

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by shenanigans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BLLDOGG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shenanigans:
btw that cut is only a $2.40 cent an hour cut in pay.

IT ain't the 30s where the companies were exploiting the workers...

Employees that do not know a trade and do not have a college education should not be making $60k a year.

skill trades start at $25 an hour </font>[/QUOTE]tell that to my technicians at work who are educated and highly skilled but only get payed around 20bucks an hour and work a lot harder and in more dangerous and stressful conditions.

any high school grad can work an assembly line. dont even get me started on benifits </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly....


I know alot of people hate this crap, but I hate this whole "minimum wage bull****" and "so and so cannot live off of $25-30k. You know what? I know that first hand.

But guess what I am making $25k as a highschool grad and working fecking part time. Got the job on my own, not handed to me, and was highered with no degree or skill.

Its hard to and people cannot live off of it. But if you want to live comfortably and have a family GET A REAL JOB!. I have a slight bit of a trade under my belt, and work it on the side, and get paid $32 an hour to do it. I rarely do it, but if I wanted too, I could jump into it full time and start a business out of it. But don't plan to.


I understand you can't live off of minimum wage, but I also think a grown person working a fulltime job should not be flipping burgers like a 16 year old kid does on the weekends as their only job.


As for the assembly line workers. Come on, not trying to step on peoples toes, but its an unskilled job. Perfect example go watch like 8 mile the movie where Eminem is pressing bumpers. Your telling me something like that requires $60k a year?


I understand there are positions in the factories that are skilled but most of them are not. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't about some damn 16 year old flipping burgers at Mickey D's. We are talking about family people making maybe $9 or $10 an hour, compared to a similar job making a decent amount of money, enough to impact the lives of the individual and their families.

tell that to my technicians at work who are educated and highly skilled but only get payed around 20bucks an hour and work a lot harder and in more dangerous and stressful conditions.

Thats the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time, a GM dealership being stressful and dangerous. I have 4 good friends that work as GM technicians at a Cadillac, Hummer, and Chevrolet dealership, and trust me, playing hackeysack on your downtime and taking test drives of CTS-V's and 07 Escalades doesn't count as stressful and dangerous. They may be a little underpaid, but stop with the sob story crap, you technicians don't have it that damn bad. Get out and do some manual labor like I have done for 5 years, and we'll see who runs back to comfort of the shop.

[SpeedingFirebird]

As Erich alluded to, the model here is really simple. If you are expendable, you make less money. The more important one becomes to a company, the more money you make. Stock and options are also handed out to those people the company wishes not to leave. If someone is making millions, the board decided it was worth the money to keep that person around.

If an unskilled person is expendable, why pay them 60K a year? Find someone willing to work 55K a year and fire the 60K person. That's just good business. THAT is why jobs are outsourced. Americans feel entitled for more money and great benis for no good reason. If you can be replaced for cheaper labor - you WILL be replaced for cheaper labor. Companies are not exploiting workers - workers are exploiting companies by demanding more money and benis.

I put myself through college and I am STILL A STUDENT. 32 frickin years old with a family and a full-time (secure) job and I still have homework every night. Why oh why torture myself this way? To become valuable to my company. To make myself Non-expendable.

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird:
As Erich alluded to, the model here is really simple. If you are expendable, you make less money. The more important one becomes to a company, the more money you make. Stock and options are also handed out to those people the company wishes not to leave. If someone is making millions, the board decided it was worth the money to keep that person around.

If an unskilled person is expendable, why pay them 60K a year? Find someone willing to work 55K a year and fire the 60K person. That's just good business. THAT is why jobs are outsourced. Americans feel entitled for more money and great benis for no good reason. If you can be replaced for cheaper labor - you WILL be replaced for cheaper labor. Companies are not exploiting workers - workers are exploiting companies by demanding more money and benis.

I put myself through college and I am STILL A STUDENT. 32 frickin years old with a family and a full-time (secure) job and I still have homework every night. Why oh why torture myself this way? To become valuable to my company. To make myself Non-expendable.

And as I have said before to other people, that lies the problem with pure capitalism.

What will happen is that eventually the middle class will be completely gone, with most of them sinking to lower class status. But, with all the money being in the upper 2 or 3 percent of the population, you have less people willing to spend the money on the products and services that have made many of the upper class rich in the first place. Lemme ask you something, ever met a poor person with an IBM ThinkPad with Intel centrino technology and Windows XP Pro? Ever met a laid off individual that can buy a new GM vehicle? NO!!! And while there will be less and less people in the upper class that are going to buy such products and services, the lower class will be more and more prone to getting government help, putting another tax burden on the rich to take care of the poor MANDATARILY. Or what will happen is that the US government will almost completely cut off the poor and only cater to the rich (kinda like they do now).

Large corporations that pay these a**holes and themselves large sums of money are going to kill this country economically. By paying the average worker even $45k a year, you keep the money circulating throughout the world, keeping the value of the US dollar high, because it is the average worker that will spend the money on things he wants and needs. By saving billions and billions of dollars in an offshore account, you lower the value of the dollar, less money is being circulated, and the middle class is the class that suffers. Its a very delicate balance this circulation of money, and these fat greedy f***s in office (both corporate and political office) don't realize this at all. I think the only person that doesn't suffer in all of this is your everyday middle management loser, too lazy to do a hard days work, and too stupid and gutless to run the company.

But hey, I am the average american worker with no college education, what the hell do I know

[SpeedingFirebird]

The problem does lie with pure capitalism - I agree with that. Forcing a mandatory salary is too much like socialism for my comfort.

The issue is, if we continue to pay unskilled workers high salaries, jobs will go elsewhere, and we still have the same problem.

The issue is not w/ a few execs making millions. Their is a much greater social-economic problem to be addressed. If we don't pay our workers enough, they will rely on government subsities. If we pay them too much, the jobs leave and they will rely on government subsities. catch-22.

"the US government will almost completely cut off the poor and only cater to the rich (kinda like they do now)."

Oh c'mon, don't buy into the propaganda. I read a democrat's speech once where he was saying some tax break was "only for the rich" and he cited some numbers. If you read all of his data, "rich" to him meant a salary of over $40K a year. Hell, that's most of the country. Now, I agree, donations and lobbyists have too much control over the US government, but "cater" to the rich is pure propaganda.

To be clear. Do I think any person's ability to run a company warrants ten of millions of dollars? Nope, but that is how capitalism works. Until I hear of a better alternative, I will try not to complain.

[JusFlyinBy]

Originally posted by Fredless:
Then when you find out you busted your *** for a 4 year degree or 6 year (or technical training)and only come to find out you land a job that will maybe get you promoted to middle management and make 40-50k a year on average...you get angry at guys like me who just have an AA an do a blue collar job and make 2x's as much as you.

You're a 21 year old high school graduate who drives for UPS and makes 90-100K a year? Damn man. If that's the case, then im one of those jealous recent college grads too. Doesn't your Union have a cap on how much you can make?

[ February 08, 2006, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: JusFlyinBy ]

[BLLDOGG]

Originally posted by Mogobs30th:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shenanigans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BLLDOGG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shenanigans:
btw that cut is only a $2.40 cent an hour cut in pay.

IT ain't the 30s where the companies were exploiting the workers...

Employees that do not know a trade and do not have a college education should not be making $60k a year.

skill trades start at $25 an hour </font>[/QUOTE]tell that to my technicians at work who are educated and highly skilled but only get payed around 20bucks an hour and work a lot harder and in more dangerous and stressful conditions.

any high school grad can work an assembly line. dont even get me started on benifits </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly....


I know alot of people hate this crap, but I hate this whole "minimum wage bull****" and "so and so cannot live off of $25-30k. You know what? I know that first hand.

But guess what I am making $25k as a highschool grad and working fecking part time. Got the job on my own, not handed to me, and was highered with no degree or skill.

Its hard to and people cannot live off of it. But if you want to live comfortably and have a family GET A REAL JOB!. I have a slight bit of a trade under my belt, and work it on the side, and get paid $32 an hour to do it. I rarely do it, but if I wanted too, I could jump into it full time and start a business out of it. But don't plan to.


I understand you can't live off of minimum wage, but I also think a grown person working a fulltime job should not be flipping burgers like a 16 year old kid does on the weekends as their only job.


As for the assembly line workers. Come on, not trying to step on peoples toes, but its an unskilled job. Perfect example go watch like 8 mile the movie where Eminem is pressing bumpers. Your telling me something like that requires $60k a year?


I understand there are positions in the factories that are skilled but most of them are not. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't about some damn 16 year old flipping burgers at Mickey D's. We are talking about family people making maybe $9 or $10 an hour, compared to a similar job making a decent amount of money, enough to impact the lives of the individual and their families.

tell that to my technicians at work who are educated and highly skilled but only get payed around 20bucks an hour and work a lot harder and in more dangerous and stressful conditions.

Thats the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time, a GM dealership being stressful and dangerous. I have 4 good friends that work as GM technicians at a Cadillac, Hummer, and Chevrolet dealership, and trust me, playing hackeysack on your downtime and taking test drives of CTS-V's and 07 Escalades doesn't count as stressful and dangerous. They may be a little underpaid, but stop with the sob story crap, you technicians don't have it that damn bad. Get out and do some manual labor like I have done for 5 years, and we'll see who runs back to comfort of the shop. </font>[/QUOTE]please, i dont know your friends or their work habits but my techs dont waste their time playing hackeysack and driving cars. my techs are good hard working guys who are not over payed. i have to go back to my job cause im on lunch but i'll add more

[3.4 slow to go]

define poor.

where's the "poverty line".

I'd really like to know where I fit in in this class warfare.

I'd like to know that I'm "poor" compared to someone making jsut $5k more a yr than I do.

please, more on this class warfare.

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird:
The problem does lie with pure capitalism - I agree with that. Forcing a mandatory salary is too much like socialism for my comfort.

The issue is, if we continue to pay unskilled workers high salaries, jobs will go elsewhere, and we still have the same problem.

The issue is not w/ a few execs making millions. Their is a much greater social-economic problem to be addressed. If we don't pay our workers enough, they will rely on government subsities. If we pay them too much, the jobs leave and they will rely on government subsities. catch-22.

Both pure capitalism and pure socialism are not solutions, we as a society know that now. Neither in its purest form work well for either the white collar or blue collar man. But there is something else you said, and I will put it clearly for everyone to see.

To be clear. Do I think any person's ability to run a company warrants ten of millions of dollars? Nope, but that is how capitalism works. Until I hear of a better alternative, I will try not to complain.

I have a GREAT alternative. Since the products and services are being sold here, IN THE US, I think it is only fitting that the government force to keep the jobs here. If the corporations refuse to keep the jobs here after that, TAX THE HELL OUT OF THEM!!! And I am not talking a 10 or 15% tax on the income made by the corps, im talking some substantial sum of money, like 40-80% of the profit (not income) brought in by America's top 1000 companies outsourcing their labor.

Outsourcing is a solution for the greedy pricks running major corporations, willing to take money from America but unwilling to give any back, and that is where the government should step in.

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by JusFlyinBy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fredless:
Then when you find out you busted your *** for a 4 year degree or 6 year (or technical training)and only come to find out you land a job that will maybe get you promoted to middle management and make 40-50k a year on average...you get angry at guys like me who just have an AA an do a blue collar job and make 2x's as much as you.

You're a 21 year old high school graduate who drives for UPS and makes 90-100K a year? Damn man. If that's the case, then im one of those jealous recent college grads too. Doesn't your Union have a cap on how much you can make? </font>[/QUOTE]If Fredless there stays at UPS, he isn't lying about how much he is going to make. Feeder drivers that have been there for 25+ years usually bring home about $85-$90k a year.

[JusFlyinBy]

Originally posted by Mogobs30th:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JusFlyinBy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fredless:
Then when you find out you busted your *** for a 4 year degree or 6 year (or technical training)and only come to find out you land a job that will maybe get you promoted to middle management and make 40-50k a year on average...you get angry at guys like me who just have an AA an do a blue collar job and make 2x's as much as you.

You're a 21 year old high school graduate who drives for UPS and makes 90-100K a year? Damn man. If that's the case, then im one of those jealous recent college grads too. Doesn't your Union have a cap on how much you can make? </font>[/QUOTE]If Fredless there stays at UPS, he isn't lying about how much he is going to make. Feeder drivers that have been there for 25+ years usually bring home about $85-$90k a year. </font>[/QUOTE]Alright, so 25+ years down the road, he could make 85-90K a year. He made it sound like he was making twice as much (85-90K) right now. If thats the case, then like I said, damn, you got it good. If not, then I guess I didn't just waste the past 5 years of my life. Thats good. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[SpeedingFirebird]

Originally posted by Mogobs30th:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird:
The problem does lie with pure capitalism - I agree with that. Forcing a mandatory salary is too much like socialism for my comfort.

The issue is, if we continue to pay unskilled workers high salaries, jobs will go elsewhere, and we still have the same problem.

The issue is not w/ a few execs making millions. Their is a much greater social-economic problem to be addressed. If we don't pay our workers enough, they will rely on government subsities. If we pay them too much, the jobs leave and they will rely on government subsities. catch-22.

Both pure capitalism and pure socialism are not solutions, we as a society know that now. Neither in its purest form work well for either the white collar or blue collar man. But there is something else you said, and I will put it clearly for everyone to see.

To be clear. Do I think any person's ability to run a company warrants ten of millions of dollars? Nope, but that is how capitalism works. Until I hear of a better alternative, I will try not to complain.

I have a GREAT alternative. Since the products and services are being sold here, IN THE US, I think it is only fitting that the government force to keep the jobs here. If the corporations refuse to keep the jobs here after that, TAX THE HELL OUT OF THEM!!! And I am not talking a 10 or 15% tax on the income made by the corps, im talking some substantial sum of money, like 40-80% of the profit (not income) brought in by America's top 1000 companies outsourcing their labor.

Outsourcing is a solution for the greedy pricks running major corporations, willing to take money from America but unwilling to give any back, and that is where the government should step in. </font>[/QUOTE]Eeeck. I hate it when people propose social reform through taxation. Setting social policy with other's money is just bad. I would say more on this, but I have a ton of homework, so I have to keep this brief.

Taxing companies 80% who only have 5% profit margins will run many companies clear out of business. Without outsource, the couldn't exist and taxation would kill them. Then most of our products would be imported anyway and we would have fewer jobs.

Outsourcing is good business - period. If you can find cheaper labor, use it. That's capitalism. If you can find cheaper gas, you go to that gas station, right? Well, scale that up to large corps. It's not being a prick, it's called making money. That's what companies do. As one who holds stocks and mutual funds, I am pleased to see this. If American companies want to compete in the global marketplace, they need to keep costs down.

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mogobs30th:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird:
The problem does lie with pure capitalism - I agree with that. Forcing a mandatory salary is too much like socialism for my comfort.

The issue is, if we continue to pay unskilled workers high salaries, jobs will go elsewhere, and we still have the same problem.

The issue is not w/ a few execs making millions. Their is a much greater social-economic problem to be addressed. If we don't pay our workers enough, they will rely on government subsities. If we pay them too much, the jobs leave and they will rely on government subsities. catch-22.

Both pure capitalism and pure socialism are not solutions, we as a society know that now. Neither in its purest form work well for either the white collar or blue collar man. But there is something else you said, and I will put it clearly for everyone to see.

To be clear. Do I think any person's ability to run a company warrants ten of millions of dollars? Nope, but that is how capitalism works. Until I hear of a better alternative, I will try not to complain.

I have a GREAT alternative. Since the products and services are being sold here, IN THE US, I think it is only fitting that the government force to keep the jobs here. If the corporations refuse to keep the jobs here after that, TAX THE HELL OUT OF THEM!!! And I am not talking a 10 or 15% tax on the income made by the corps, im talking some substantial sum of money, like 40-80% of the profit (not income) brought in by America's top 1000 companies outsourcing their labor.

Outsourcing is a solution for the greedy pricks running major corporations, willing to take money from America but unwilling to give any back, and that is where the government should step in. </font>[/QUOTE]Eeeck. I hate it when people propose social reform through taxation. Setting social policy with other's money is just bad. I would say more on this, but I have a ton of homework, so I have to keep this brief.

Taxing companies 80% who only have 5% profit margins will run many companies clear out of business. Without outsource, the couldn't exist and taxation would kill them. Then most of our products would be imported anyway and we would have fewer jobs.

Outsourcing is good business - period. If you can find cheaper labor, use it. That's capitalism. If you can find cheaper gas, you go to that gas station, right? Well, scale that up to large corps. It's not being a prick, it's called making money. That's what companies do. As one who holds stocks and mutual funds, I am pleased to see this. If American companies want to compete in the global marketplace, they need to keep costs down. </font>[/QUOTE]If that 5% profit margin is still in the BILLIONS of dollars, then I think taxing the 80% isn't going to put them out of business. Its going to keep them from basically stockpiling large sums of money for no reason at all but to contest with other large companies as to who has the larger bankroll.

But also again, like everyone else here, you misunderstood. Either keep the jobs here, or get taxed, its that simple. If you keep the jobs here, it would probably cost MUCH less than it would be to get the living hell taxed out of you. If you don't outsource, YOU DON'T GET TAXED BEYOND WHAT YOU ARE ALREADY GETTING TAXED, thats how my plan works. But these greedy people need to start keeping the jobs here.

There is also something else that I have a major problem with, competing with the global marketplace. There is VERY little in this country that we cannot provide for ourselves, and I don't think it is really anything important (including OIL!!). Thats a lot of the problem with big business, not only are they willing to take money from us, but are just as willing to take money from foreigners as well. Its a a scenario that only ends with the rich man owning EVERYTHING. We would have more jobs if we could provide for ourselves, starting by buying products manufactured from here if at all possible, and keeping imports to a LOW.

You know whats going to kill this country, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Disney, McDonalds, and UPS. It will be a matter of time before we aren't voting for the common people to run this country, but voting for CEO's and Presidents of corporations to run this place, because it is all about the almighty dollar. F*** the small guy, cause it is a dog eat dog world. F***ing sickening. This country has gotten so greedy with its money that it is willing to put someone out of their home, and keep families from being able to eat while others sit high on the hog, playing polo and living in the Hamptons. We can't even educate a large portion of this place because education cost have gotten out of control, making a mass of MILLIONS of uneducated people, willing to follow whatever the man with money says. We have been blinded and fistf***ed by our own laws because we don't have the money to represent ourselves anymore in the courts we created for equality.

And if you think this problem will end simply with jobs, your dumb. We will continue to lose small chunks of our own freedom, just so some guy can make a quick dollar. The only thing that will be left of this country is a large wasteland of humans, walking around with no food, water, or place to live, and a FEW small communities of disgustingly wealthy people, with the best land, houses, schools, food, water, everything, while they make fences to keep out the poor and needy. You know why? Because its a dog eat dog world. Well guess what, this dog can eat my A**.

BTW, the reason I am so pissed is because I have to sit here and watch my own 49 year old mother work 2 jobs, WHILE I PAY HALF OF THE BILLS MYSELF, just so she can keep this tiny s***box of a house that some people could easily call a closet. She didn't have the option of going to school, none of my 7 aunts and uncles did. I think they all deserve better than to live the way they do, but, like you have liked to point out Speeding, outsourcing is awesome, and because of outsourcing, 4 of those 7 have lost their jobs in the last 5 years.

[V6Bob]

Mogobs30th -

I understand your anger. But your idea just won't work. Taxing American companies that outsource will make them uncompetitive with foreign companies we can't tax. Then everything goes overseas.

And isolating a country from trade is just not a feasible solution, either.

Other countries are getting richer because they're working hard and smart, America is taking a hit, and it will get worse. That's the hand we're being dealt and there are no easy answers.

I think the sensible thing is to compete where we can, beef up our capabilities where we can be the best, prepare our kids for life in the new world, and, most importantly, figure out a way where all Americans fairly share the burdens brought about by the changes. The last is where I'm the most pessimistic. You and I agree about that. People don't seem to care about the ever increasing economic gap in this country between the winners and the losers. I think that gap will create bad problems, even for the winners.

Book about all this everyone should read: The World is Flat by Thomas Friedman. A very smart guy who has optimism that we can deal with this new world if we stop ignoring it or denying it exists, roll up our sleeves, and start working hard and smart too.

[ February 09, 2006, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: V6Bob ]