A question...

[98Camaro3.8]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
so then, let's take water.

it's moving in the opposite direction of the plane's speed. will the plane take off? NO

Yes it would.

If the plane used an underwater propeller, no it would not.

[3.4 slow to go]

I really hope there's nothing on this plane you need, as you're not going to get it anytime son.

[3.4 slow to go]

Originally posted by 98Camaro3.8:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
so then, let's take water.

it's moving in the opposite direction of the plane's speed. will the plane take off? NO

Yes it would.

If the plane used an underwater propeller, no it would not. </font>[/QUOTE]riiiiiiiiiiiiight, because the skis would be traveling twice as fast as the plane.......yeah,that's the ticket

[asdf1234]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 98Camaro3.8:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
so then, let's take water.

it's moving in the opposite direction of the plane's speed. will the plane take off? NO

Yes it would.

If the plane used an underwater propeller, no it would not. </font>[/QUOTE]riiiiiiiiiiiiight, because the skis would be traveling twice as fast as the plane.......yeah,that's the ticket </font>[/QUOTE]LOL. Good one. We should have worded better that the wheel wasn't actually going twice the speed of the plane, merely rotating the amount of times necessary for it to go twice the speed of the plane if the treadmill were not rolling backwards at the speed of which the plane was rolling foward.

In this case, the ski and plane would travel at the same rate, because there are no revolutions of the ski involved.

[4thgenowner]

My plane has 3 wheels and two wings...

[AZ3.8Camaro]

Originally posted by airfrmr:
My point is your a dumba$$. bernoulli's principle is for fluid not air retard.

This is the funniest thing I have ever read.
Ever.

Matt is 100000000000000000% correct on this one guys.

Here is something to help you visualize it...

If the plane were sitting on the treadmill, just say, with no thrust, and the treadmill was running at 1000 miles and hour, would the plane move? No, the wheels would simple free wheel, while the plane sits there. (small amounts of friction aside). This should show you that the treadmill has no effect other than speeding up the tires. Now add thrust, the plane moves forward, just like off a runway, but the tires are going twice as fast.

[AZ3.8Camaro]

Originally posted by airfrmr:
My point is your a dumba$$. bernoulli's principle is for fluid not air retard.

Oh man... did I mention how funny that was?

[3.4 slow to go]

Originally posted by AZ3.8Camaro:
Here is something to help you visualize it...

If the plane were sitting on the treadmill, just say, with no thrust, and the treadmill was running at 1000 miles and hour, would the plane move? No, the wheels would simple free wheel, while the plane sits there. (small amounts of friction aside). This should show you that the treadmill has no effect other than speeding up the tires. Now add thrust, the plane moves forward, just like off a runway, but the tires are going twice as fast. [/QB]

nomatterhow many times you say it, you're still wrong. what is holding the plane in placewhile this treadmill is going? nothig, thus the plane will move backwards. And even for this to work in the original question, the plane would be moving at 1000 mph.

[MTMike]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
what is holding the plane in placewhile this treadmill is going? nothig, thus the plane will move backwards. And even for this to work in the original question, the plane would be moving at 1000 mph.

FRICTION! Friction is what would move the plane on the treadmill with no engine thrust. As SOON as the engines make enough thrust to overcome the small amount of friction allowing the plane move backwards on the treadmill, it will propel forward.

Objects in rest remain at rest until a force is applied on it. As soon as the treamill starts to move, the friction is the force that keeps the wheels from turning and would allow the plane to move backwards. If there was absolutely no friction in the wheels, the plane would sit stationary as the treadmill moved because there would be no force exerted on it causing it to move backwards

Physics 101.... live it. Learn it. Love it.

[zlexiss]

Threads like this make make baby Newton cry..

Air and all gases are fluids, btw. Anything that isn't solid is a fluid. The only difference between liquids and gases is compressibility.

The plane will take off on a treadmill. Car analogies are not correct. The traction of rubber is a non-issue - the wheel rolls, just like one a car. Rolling friction is tiny.

The way to make the airplane not take off is to ignore the ground and anything to do with the wheels. If the wheels were so important to get the plane moving, how would they fly once they took off?

You need a wind tunnel that provides a tailwind that matches the plane's ground speed. The plane can roll as fast as it wants, but with no air moving over the wings it can't take off.

[3.4 slow to go]

Originally posted by MTMike:
Friction is what would move the plane on the treadmill with no engine thrust. As SOON as the engines make enough thrust to overcome the small amount of friction allowing the plane move backwards on the treadmill, it will propel forward.

and the treadmill will move in with an equall amount of force in opposite direction.

Originally posted by zlexiss:

The way to make the airplane not take off is to ignore the ground and anything to do with the wheels. If the wheels were so important to get the plane moving, how would they fly once they took off?

You need a wind tunnel that provides a tailwind that matches the plane's ground speed. The plane can roll as fast as it wants, but with no air moving over the wings it can't take off.

then like I said before, remove the wheels and let the plane sit on the tarmac. will it still produce enough thrust to move & take off?


and your second points confirms what many others and I have said, it will NOT take off.

[MTMike]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
and the treadmill will move in with an equall amount of force in opposite direction.

But with no friction, that force isn't transferred. Unless the landing gear is providing enough friction equal and opposite the thrust of the engines, the plane will move forward.

[3.4 slow to go]

the landing gear doesn't need to, the treadmill is counteracting the thrust. the wheels will end up just spinning w/the plane not moving

[MTMike]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
the landing gear doesn't need to, the treadmill is counteracting the thrust. the wheels will end up just spinning w/the plane not moving

So you're telling me that Newton is rolling over in his grave and that the 400 ton plane with frictionless wheels will suddenly start moving without a force exerted on it?

Explain to me how the force will be transfered to the plane through frictionless landing gear from the treadmill?

[AZ3.8Camaro]

Originally posted by 3.4 slow to go:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AZ3.8Camaro:
Here is something to help you visualize it...

If the plane were sitting on the treadmill, just say, with no thrust, and the treadmill was running at 1000 miles and hour, would the plane move? No, the wheels would simple free wheel, while the plane sits there. (small amounts of friction aside). This should show you that the treadmill has no effect other than speeding up the tires. Now add thrust, the plane moves forward, just like off a runway, but the tires are going twice as fast.

nomatterhow many times you say it, you're still wrong. what is holding the plane in placewhile this treadmill is going? nothig, thus the plane will move backwards. And even for this to work in the original question, the plane would be moving at 1000 mph. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Nothing has to hold the plane in place, put a wagon on a treadmill, it moves back a little because of rolling friction, but not NEARLY as fast as the treadmill rolls. The wheels are effectively in neutral.

If you have your car on a dyno, you get the rollers going and then put the car in nuetral (the planes wheels are always in neutral). Does your car move? No, the wheels just roll, like the planes would on the treadmill.
Add thrust and you go. Period.