Are Carburated Cars more reliable than Fuel Injected Computer Operated Cars

[V6Bob]

"Man, my experience it totally different. I remember those cold Maine mornings - darn carbs were finicky. We would have to fix and tune those things constantly. FI was a GREAT thing for us."

I agree with this. I remember nursing carb engines to life in Chicago in winter. It was a revolution when I could get in, turn the key and have it start, and drive away without bucking/coughing, etc.

In my experience carbs mostly ran a little bit off. The new stuff sometimes (rarely) just quits and needs a tow and an expert with machines, but it runs spot on almost all the time with almost no maintenance at all. I'll take that.

Don't get me started about ignitions :D .

[camaro_speedemon]

Man o man. I can't believe you guys think carbs are better.

EFI cars have so many advantages over carbed it's not even funny. My camaro had 150k miles on it and still ran great when I got rid of it. My friend's LT1 caprice had 300k with just a tranny rebuild on it last time he heard.

"The don't make em like they used to" Not so sure why you're even saying this. Valve gasket leaks, rear main seal leaks, rusting bodies. I'm sure I can keep going. Car's had ****ty build quality 50 years ago, just like today.

[KBeezy]

This coming from a guy with a Toyota Matrix? =P


I kid I kid.


Downstairs in my garage sits a 1966 Volkswagen Beetle.. Those were cars back in the day that you could beat the ever-living crap out of and they'd still go. Rust? Not nearly as bad as most would think. Ours? Completely rust free, and we live in Michigan! Carb? Yup, after 40 years I rebuilt it but what do you expect? I know of no fuel injected cars that can go that long without needing some sort of rebuilt ;) The transmission and motor otherwise are perfect. Miles? God knows, it only had 5-numerals on the odometer - so it could have rolled 100k many many times. My question for you hard-core fuel injection guys is how easy is it for you to add more fuel to your AF mix? ;) For me is a screw or a jet away. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by KBeezy:

Downstairs in my garage sits a 1966 Volkswagen Beetle.. Those were cars back in the day that you could beat the ever-living crap out of and they'd still go. Rust? Not nearly as bad as most would think. Ours? Completely rust free, and we live in Michigan! Carb? Yup, after 40 years I rebuilt it but what do you expect? I know of no fuel injected cars that can go that long without needing some sort of rebuilt ;) The transmission and motor otherwise are perfect. Miles? God knows, it only had 5-numerals on the odometer - so it could have rolled 100k many many times. My question for you hard-core fuel injection guys is how easy is it for you to add more fuel to your AF mix? ;) For me is a screw or a jet away. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Considering EFI has only really been around since the mid 80's, I certainly would imagine that you haven't seen an EFI that is 40 years old ;) Saying an EFI motor can't do it is pure ignorance. LT1s can easily go 250K+ miles, and I see hundreds of 80's cars still on the road today.

As far as changing the a/f mix, it's a just few keystrokes. EFI hands down will always make more power then a carb PERIOD. And it will get better gas milage doing it. When you tune an EFI car, you tune it at the RPM level. 6K RPMs is going to demand much more fuel then 2K RPMs. So you set your PCM to dump more fuel in at 6k PRM then at 2k RPMs. You just can't do that with a carb.

EFI is simply better then carbs, hands down.

[KBeezy]

So is that why nascar and most dragsters continue to use carbs? ;) And yes, you can adjust fuel at RPMs in a carb'd car, provided you have the correct carb, fuel system, and know how to adjust it ;)


And yes, I too have seen LT1s go 250k+, but how many of them have had their fuel pumps replaced or injectors? Not to mention their opti-sparks ;) But then we get in to the debate of Distributor VS Distributorless ignitions ;) And remember, not all cars from the 80s are fuel injected, there were still lots of carb'd cars in the 80s -- hell, neither GM or Ford went with fuel injection as a standard on their V8 pony-cars until 1986. And yes, Fuel Injection has been around since the early 80s and even before that, ever heard of Crossfire Injection? ;) Worst system designed, ever.

[caveblazin]

My StepDad has a 99 chevy van with the 4.3 vortec and he put 505,000 so far and it runs like its brand new. He changes the oil regularly has had to change the fuel pump twice I think and regular stuff like brakes,filter etc.. But it is still a great running vehicle, VERY DEPENDABLE!!!

[majeskyb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KBeezy:
And yes, Fuel Injection has been around since the early 80s and even before that, ever heard of Crossfire Injection? ;) Worst system designed, ever. [/QUOTE}
What about the ramjet injection and other mechanical fuel injection systems from the "fuelies"?

[camaro_speedemon]

[quote]Originally posted by majeskyb:

Originally posted by KBeezy:
And yes, Fuel Injection has been around since the early 80s and even before that, ever heard of Crossfire Injection? ;) Worst system designed, ever. [/QUOTE}
What about the ramjet injection and other mechanical fuel injection systems from the "fuelies"?

That's why I said EFI, Electronic Fuel Injection ;)

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by KBeezy:
So is that why nascar and most dragsters continue to use carbs? ;) And yes, you can adjust fuel at RPMs in a carb'd car, provided you have the correct carb, fuel system, and know how to adjust it ;)

Nascar and NHRA still use carbs because of regulations, not because carb is better.

[camaro_speedemon]

Oh yea, one more thing. Tell me again how easy it is to go forced induction on a carbed car ;)

Sure it can be done, but it's much harder to do with a carb.

[KBeezy]

Its VERY easy actually, like I said, change the jets and AF ratio with the adjustment screws. Roots-blowers are CAKE on carb'd cars. Once again, a ****load easier than EFI, no programming to deal with.


And I wouldn't say they use em because of regulations, I'd more so say who wants to **** around with hookin up to the computer when you can generate so much more power for so much cheaper. Thats the other thing, cost fellas.. cost.. And we're not talking EFI in particular -- look at the topic.. It says Fuel Injected.. How about TBI cars? All they are are carb's with a single or pair of fuel injectors *shrug* The only thing I'll give up to fuel injected cars is fuel economy.

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by KBeezy:
Its VERY easy actually, like I said, change the jets and AF ratio with the adjustment screws. Roots-blowers are CAKE on carb'd cars. Once again, a ****load easier than EFI, no programming to deal with.


And I wouldn't say they use em because of regulations, I'd more so say who wants to **** around with hookin up to the computer when you can generate so much more power for so much cheaper. Thats the other thing, cost fellas.. cost.. And we're not talking EFI in particular -- look at the topic.. It says Fuel Injected.. How about TBI cars? All they are are carb's with a single or pair of fuel injectors *shrug* The only thing I'll give up to fuel injected cars is fuel economy.

It's just as easy if not easier with an EFI car. And I'm pretty sure the creator of the thread had EFI in mind when he started this thread. Take the car out on the road, check the O2 sensor. Looks like I'm running rich, *click click* oops too much, *click* That's better.

Now for carb. Check the O2 sensor, because that's the only way to make presise adjustments. Running rich, pull over, pop the hood, adjust the carb, go drive again. Oops too much, pull back over, adjust the jet some more.

With EFI, let's say I have a heavily modded GTP. I drive it to the track, getting say 30MPG highway and pull in the pits. I pop the hood, swap from a factory pulley to a 3". I pull out a thermometer, and check the air temp, 80*. I plug my laptop into the OBD2 port, and load the fuel table for my 3" pulley for 80* temps.

I do a run, and as I'm reviewing my log of the run, I notice I have some KR @ 4000 RPM. I change the timing for 4000 RPM, and run a few more times. Perfect.

About half way through the night, I notice it's gotten colder. I pull out my thermometer, 70*. I load in the fuel table for 70*

Well, it's time to go home. I put the stock pulley back on, and load in the stock fuel tables.

So please tell me again, how much easier is it to tune carb vs EFI? Sure you can have different jets for different temps, but are you going to sit there and tell me that it's easier to adjust a carb, then a few clicks of a computer?

BTW, you think the engineers making drag engines, which are only good for a few passes BTW, are concerned with cost? Oh yea, btw, they already do **** around hooking a computer up to the drag car. They still use sensor to tell them how to tune their carbs.

The major reason nascar hasn't gone EFI yet, yes I said yet, is because they're afraid people may find a way to hide traction control in the in the EFI computer.

If carb is so much better, why is pretty much every other form of racing, F1, CART ect, using EFI?

And with EFI, you can pretty much drop a blower on a stock car and depending on how much boost, not worry about tuning. The computer will see more air entering the engine and compensate by and adding more fuel.

[ September 18, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: camaro_speedemon ]

[KBeezy]

LOL - You obviously have no experience with Carbs.. All you have to do is listen to the motor. I dialed in my mustang by ear and exhaust smell, its not as hard as you think. Just takes some experience. When I go to the track all I do is let my car cool down, pull in to the staging lanes, and GO. If you want to talk about adjusting timing, I guarantee carb/distributor cars once again have you beat, just pop out the timing light and turn it ;) ...

And no, the computer wont compensate by adding more fuel... Not enough fuel anyways, you're limited by your fuel pump and injector size where on a carb all you have to do is back out the AF screw a little bit to dump in some more fuel or if you want to get REAL crazy change the jets. Its gravy [img]smile.gif[/img]

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by KBeezy:
LOL - You obviously have no experience with Carbs.. All you have to do is listen to the motor. I dialed in my mustang by ear and exhaust smell, its not as hard as you think. Just takes some experience. When I go to the track all I do is let my car cool down, pull in to the staging lanes, and GO. If you want to talk about adjusting timing, I guarantee carb/distributor cars once again have you beat, just pop out the timing light and turn it ;) ...

And no, the computer wont compensate by adding more fuel... Not enough fuel anyways, you're limited by your fuel pump and injector size where on a carb all you have to do is back out the AF screw a little bit to dump in some more fuel or if you want to get REAL crazy change the jets. Its gravy [img]smile.gif[/img]

You're right, I've never worked on a carbed car. But I know enough about them to tell you EFI is better.

If you're only adding say 6PSI of boost, the computer WILL add more fuel. Yes, your limited to what your pump and injectors can handle, but unless your going crazy with boost, they will be fine.

Just listening to the motor, sure you can do that. But it's most certainly not as good as using a wideband o2. Good enough, yea it may get you close, but you're crazy if you think it's better.

And you're nuts to even think a distributor is better then a computer controlled ignition. Like I said before, you can adjust the spark timing per RPM. You don't have enough timing, you advance it. If you start getting knock in higher RPMs, you back it off without loosing your lower timing.

[KBeezy]

Dude, you can still go with an MSD/Accel/mallory ignition for your distributor, but why **** around with the computer when you can bypass it and go completely mechanical?