abortion...not a sappy story, but MY heartfelt request.

[Die Ford V8]

Originally posted by jola:
i think its a question about when you feel life begins. all these arguments about the woman having control over her own body kind of make me sad. its true women have control over their own bodies, but a baby isn't exactly part of a woman per say, its moreso a dependant but separate organism. personally, i feel life begins at the point where the first cell (that of the future child) is manifested. That cell may be dependant on the mother, but its still a cell with entirely different DNA from the mother. I don't understand why a baby inside and completely dependant on a mother is considered just another extension of the mother's body. as far as the moral arguments are concerned, i don't think a person can judge, based on the parents, who is worthy of being born and who merits abortion. i don't consider my life to be completely decided by the status of my parents, neither do i consider anybody's life more valuable then another's.

i fully agree, life begins as conception, not at birth or when one looks human. technically people are dependant on their parents or mom till they are a few years old and then are still dependant, should people carry a 1 year old and be like, "well they cant talk yet and dont have a life, so lets rip their limbs off, suck out their brains, or whatever and wait for their heart to stop beating."

i know others will disagree,

ABORTION IS WICKED AND ABSOLUTELY SICK!

[Die Ford V8]

i know some will say they dont have the time, or will think the movie is corny made or whatever.

if you think your a hot shot or tough or whatever im sure you will feel remorse and might change your mind about abortion if you watch the videos on this link http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm

or you can just sit there like a kid and fold your arms and say i dont need to see it or i dont wanna,

i personally dont think anyone should give an opinion till they know and see what the process is really about, even though i wont agree with someone that has seen it and still agrees with abortion, ill at least have respect for them in the logic standpoint instead of them giving an opinion for something they know nothing about.

but what is my respect worth, im just a guy with "die ford v8" for a name on the internet...


i mean anyone would feel bad for anything that suffers. would you light a cat on fire!!!!??? would you suck the limbs off your cat with a shop vac. you feel for people in war movies when their finger gets ripped off or they are killed or wounded. How Can You Not Feel for an unborn human that suffers and dies. death in inevitable, but murder...4000 abortions a day... can be prevented... its our choice


i cant make it through the third movie my heart hurts so bad for the baby...

[ September 28, 2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Die Ford V8 ]

[Die Ford V8]

Originally posted by Rabid Dog:
I used to be pro-choice, until I saw a video of how they performed the operation. Now, I only agree with it, if there is a tubal ligation scare.

But, just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean I'm going to try and impart my beliefs on the women that do.

you dont agree with theft or murder or whatever, so dont impart your beliefs on people that do

still not trying to have this become a flame war, just like the mod said, its my opinion

[Mogobs30th]

I don't get the whole pro-life thing. People say that HUMAN life is precious, but consider all other life to be expendable. Why is that, because we are the dominant species on the planet? Or is it because of our intelligence? Or is it because we are more self-aware than any other form of life on the planet?

I believe that pro-lifer's are the byproduct of human and AMERICAN arrogance. To think that we should be set apart from any other form of life on this planet is simply rediculous. I believe that we are no more important than a pig, ear of corn, or a blade of grass. We must live in this world with a balance, and if that balance costs the life of someone YOU think is special, so be it. No human life is entitled to longevity, good health, or a happy life. That is the way nature balances itself, we just happen to know how to balance it with our own technological and intellectual advancement. Without that balance, humans would eventually turn into a rampant pest similar to a sewer rat, consuming everything in our grasp, till there is nothing left in this world.

Those views are more generalized and worldly level, but if you want a more personal level then I can explain that too. If a parent isn't ready to have a child, or for some circumstance that is it not good to have a child (as Vanbibber stated earlier), why should abortion not be an option? You could perpetually be bringing a life into this world only so it can suffer in the long run. Take for example the numerous third world countries that have an overwhelming population of people that are poverty stricken, sick, dying of diseases we can't control, living in filth and disease with little more than a few worthless possessions. It think in that situation if abortions were possible there, there would be many people that wouldn't have had to live or died in those situations. Personally, in those situations, that is no life to live.

Another point of view that I would like to state is the hypocracies of a pro-lifer. There are some of these people that do not think that an abortion is ethical, but if asked to take care of a child yet to be born, I would be ABSOLUTELY sure that the number of people against abortion compared to the number of unborn childs and their mothers would be much less. Some pro-lifers are willing to protest, but unwilling to be a significant part of unborn child. Simply stated, if you believe abortion is wrong, YOU can take care of them when they are born. It would be likely that many pro-lifers wouldn't be up to that kind of challenge. If the pro-lifers would be willing to try to attempt a discussion with the mother of an unborn child, perhaps an agreement to take care of that child, it might be easier for that mother to give up the idea of an abortion in the first place. But that is unlikely to happen.

Die ford V8, I watched all those clips you have posted, and personally, I believe the info provided was extremely partisan to the pro-lifer's. No where in those 5 clips were any reasons given for these abortions, for why I believe is that not ALL of them are for personal reasons, but some might actually be for the health and safety of the mother. I am a little dissappointed with the material you provided, I would have hoped for something a little more factual, instead of the feelings and expressions of one doctor, from the looks of it, some 20 years ago.

[FirebirdGT]

The problem here is that abortion has become a political issue, because it has become a conservative religious belief issue.

You can't legislate abortion out of existence.

Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. It's choice.

It is so simple for men to say "just have the baby, and put it up for adoption". You aren't pregnant for 9 months. And many men in the age bracket of this board, just walk away - it's HER problem.


The American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American Medical Women's Association have all opposed obstacles that impair women's access to safe and early abortion services. Medical professionals understand the serious health risks created by state-mandated obstacles to legal abortion.

Now, there is a growing movement of pharmacists refusing to even fill women’s legally prescribed birth-control prescriptions due the pharmacist's religious beliefs. When a woman and her doctor have made the decision that a prescription for birth control is in her best interest, a third party has no right to override that decision.


It needs to stay a WOMAN’s choice, with her doctor and HER beliefs – not someone else.

[jola]

@ Mogobs

as far as the nature argument is concerned, i think it is different for humans. humans and animals are seperated by morals. i believe cannabalism (sp?) is wrong, and hopefully you do too. however, there are species in the animal kingdom that do not have the same feelings and find it quite amusing to eat their young or their competition. i also find it hard to equate a human life with the life of an animal. take for instance, the blade of grass that you mentioned. according to your argument, if i understand it correctly, stepping on a blade of grass is equal to battering another human. i find this hard to accept. i've killed many a worm on my fishing expeditions...does that put me up there with charles manson?

"You could perpetually be bringing a life into this world only so it can suffer in the long run."

i understand this argument, but disagree with it. i don't think that you or i can judge the importance of a life. how can you say that a life that suffers more then you shouldn't have the option of living?

@ firebirdGT

its true, you can't legislate morality. but as far as the "it needs to stay a woman's choice" statement, please tell me why you believe it is the woman's choice. i understand its infinitely easier for a man to say have the baby then for a woman to have a baby, but what makes you feel that a woman has the option of ending a seperate life other then her own? is it b/c the baby is inside the woman and dependant on her? if so, that would mean the only difference between killing a 3 month old baby and having an abortion would be the location of the child. legally speaking, that's fine, but i can't justify that in my mind.

[Rabid Dog]

Die hard, if you don't want a flame war, or this thread locked, I'd suggest some level-headedness.

If you'd actually, you know.. read the post fully, instead of furiosly pounding the "quote w/ reply" button with your enraged finger, you'd read a little more into it.

I don't agree with abortion, but at the same time I think it's wrong for people to actually try and force their views and beliefs on other people. In fact, if you want to get precise, it's that same thing that got Roe v/s Wade passed in the first place. People getting angry, and sticking their noses into other people's personal lives. They (pro-choicers) had no choice, but to take it to court.

That's what is slowly ruining this country, people sticking their noses in every facet of another person's life.

And, I'm sorry, but that last line in your post was just stupid. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Basically, it's cool to be against abortion. Hell, I am. But what your trieng to do is force people into your beliefs by getting angry at them and placating them.

You would do alot more good, if you calmly discuss it with people, give them the pros/cons, and then try and sway them. But, leave the ultimate choice to them. Free speech is their speech too.

What's good and right for you, may not be best for someone else.

[FirebirdGT]

Originally posted by Rabid Dog:
Die hard, if you don't want a flame war, or this thread locked, I'd suggest some level-headedness.

If you'd actually, you know.. read the post fully, instead of furiosly pounding the "quote w/ reply" button with your enraged finger, you'd read a little more into it.

I don't agree with abortion, but at the same time I think it's wrong for people to actually try and force their views and beliefs on other people. In fact, if you want to get precise, it's that same thing that got Roe v/s Wade passed in the first place. People getting angry, and sticking their noses into other people's personal lives. They (pro-choicers) had no choice, but to take it to court.

That's what is slowly ruining this country, people sticking their noses in every facet of another person's life.

And, I'm sorry, but that last line in your post was just stupid. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Basically, it's cool to be against abortion. Hell, I am. But what your trieng to do is force people into your beliefs by getting angry at them and placating them.

You would do alot more good, if you calmly discuss it with people, give them the pros/cons, and then try and sway them. But, leave the ultimate choice to them. Free speech is their speech too.

What's good and right for you, may not be best for someone else.

X2

My personal MALE opinion on abortion is NOT relevant, as I firmly believe that it is the WOMAN's decision, HER choice. She will have to live with HER decision. Taking that choice away I believe is fundamentally wrong.

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by FirebirdGT:
The problem here is that abortion has become a political issue, because it has become a conservative religious belief issue.

You can't legislate abortion out of existence.

Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. It's choice.

It is so simple for men to say "just have the baby, and put it up for adoption". You aren't pregnant for 9 months. And many men in the age bracket of this board, just walk away - it's HER problem.


The American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American Medical Women's Association have all opposed obstacles that impair women's access to safe and early abortion services. Medical professionals understand the serious health risks created by state-mandated obstacles to legal abortion.

Now, there is a growing movement of pharmacists refusing to even fill women’s legally prescribed birth-control prescriptions due the pharmacist's religious beliefs. When a woman and her doctor have made the decision that a prescription for birth control is in her best interest, a third party has no right to override that decision.


It needs to stay a WOMAN’s choice, with her doctor and HER beliefs – not someone else.

What if a child is screaming and crying and is unconsolable, and the mother decided she just can't take it anymore. Why can't she just kill it then? I mean, it came out of her, its composed of her DNA, so why can't she use HER choice and kill it? What about my neighbor who constantly blasts his radio and keeps me up at night, why can't I kill him? It's affect my life, so why don't I have the choice?

Or how about murder, it's "immoral" in western culture, but what about the places where is perfectly acceptable to kill someone because they stole from you.

Another question for you is, why does the woman have the right to play god? What if Einstien had been aborted? Or Edison? Or Newton? I mean seriously, there are thousands of abortions a day. What if we killed the person that would have found the cure for cancer or aids? Or the person that would have had a revolutionizing invention that completely changed the way we live. With that many abortions a day, it would be ignorant to say that hasn't have happened.

And most people who are pro-choice don't have kids. It sickens me to think that my daughter could have been aborted if my wife decided she wanted to have one. Not saying she did, but if she wanted one there would have been absolutely NOTHING I could have done to stop her. Do I know exactly what it's like to be pregnant for 9 months? No, but I lived with a pregnant woman, and that's good enough in my book.

You make being pregnant sounds like it's some kind of disease. My wife said feeling a life, yes LIFE, grow inside of her was the most increadible thing she's felt in her life. And you know what, feeling Katy kick for the first time was absolutely amazing.

You have your opinion, I have mine, and I doubt we'll change each others opinion on this matter.

[Mighty Thor]

Pro-choice is nothing more than Pro-abortion. It is a liberal way of saying pro-choice because they want to avoid stating that it's truely nothing more than Pro-abortion. A true meaning of Pro-choice is giving the baby life and to nature it. Pro-choice is giving a baby up for adoption. Pro-choice is giving a baby a chance to have the same opportunity as us. Should I go on? Now Pro-abortion means you are for abortion, PERIOD. Anybody wanna argue that?

This Roe vs. Wade was nothing more than a lie. Norma McCorvey who was a very active liberal feminist and the plantiff fabricated a lie. She was never pregnant to begin with. Now we have this whole mess base on a lie. After she had her first baby she changed her mind. Now she organizes Pro-life movement.

99% of the abortion resulted from careless or carefree sex out of weblock. With No sense of responsibility. It is not mostly on rape or anything else.

When two gametes: a sperm and an egg, combine to form a zygote it is considered first stage of a new human being, very unique with it's own set of new DNA. Now this is in the medical book. How many of you at one time was not a zygote? How many of you at one time was not a fetus? And how many of you at one time was not a baby? Yes, thank you, I rest my case.

This country is really SCREWED!! It's OK for teenagers to get an abortion without their parents knowing or their consent. But parents must know if they have been drinking and smoking because they are under age and it is bad. Yes thank you liberals.

[Mogobs30th]

Originally posted by jola:
@ Mogobs

as far as the nature argument is concerned, i think it is different for humans. humans and animals are seperated by morals. there are species in the animal kingdom that do not have the same feelings and find it quite amusing to eat their young or their competition.

I can agree with only one point you make, we do have morals. BUT....our own morals are of human conception, through intelligence. You like to also say...

i also find it hard to equate a human life with the life of an animal.

...which only solidifies my point saying THAT HUMANS ARE ARROGANT!!! In no way, NO WAY, could you say that your life is more important than any other form of life in this world. It is simply absurd. Plantlife, animals and humans SHARE the same world with each other, but you find it CONVENIENT to make the choice of another form of life, but not human. In all honesty, who do you think you are to say that some animal can die, but a human life must live, no matter the situations? This is a question that ALL pro-lifer's must ask themselves. Your own arrogance and stubborness to think that human life is far more precious than any other form of life in this world is what is sickening.

i don't think that you or i can judge the importance of a life.

YOU ALREADY HAVE!!!
You say that all "HUMAN" life should live, no matter the circumstance.

I believe that everything lives within a cycle. We eat plants and animals, sometimes animals eat us (obviously at a substantially lower rate), but where is the balance within the cycle for humans? I think subconsciencly we have found it with abortion.

What if a child is screaming and crying and is unconsolable, and the mother decided she just can't take it anymore. Why can't she just kill it then? I mean, it came out of her, its composed of her DNA, so why can't she use HER choice and kill it? What about my neighbor who constantly blasts his radio and keeps me up at night, why can't I kill him? It's affect my life, so why don't I have the choice?

I am goig to answer these questions soon in this paragraph, read along. As stated above by jola, some animals within the world eat or kill thier own young. That is because those animals act upon INSTINCT, definitely not amusement. Those animals are balancing themselves within that cycle. We humans also act upon instinct, but we do it intelligently and as morally as possible. We don't club our newborns in the head witha 4-way lugwrench as soon as they are born, we instead do it through the process of an abortion and adoption. We humans do act instinctively, through debating, sex, almost every aspect in life, I don't think it is any different with the decision of life and death. I believe that humans instinctively know when bringing a life into the world we have can be the wrong decision, and we act accoringly through our intelligence and morals. But through it all, it is still instinct.

Another question for you is, why does the woman have the right to play god?

In my belief, no one can play God, but then we are too insignificant for God to acknowledge us in the first place. God made us independent, and has nothing to say in what human life does. So before this gets religious, I really think the God issue on abortion is undoubtedly irrelevant. Believe what you want, I will believe what I wish, that for sure will never change.

Mighty Thor and camaro_speedemon, I think your comments have their merit on some level or another, but to my conclusion are completely irrelevant. We can sit here and play the game of "what if" until we are blue in the face, and it will get both sides nowhere on this issue. What has happened, has happened, and it will get us nowhere discussing what could have happened years ago.

Yes thank you liberals

You are most welcome conservative christian fundamentalists.

[jc Kyle]

blah... if you don't like abortion, then don't do it

[LD]

Originally posted by camaro_speedemon:
What if a child is screaming and crying and is unconsolable, and the mother decided she just can't take it anymore. Why can't she just kill it then? I mean, it came out of her, its composed of her DNA, so why can't she use HER choice and kill it? What about my neighbor who constantly blasts his radio and keeps me up at night, why can't I kill him? It's affect my life, so why don't I have the choice?

Or how about murder, it's "immoral" in western culture, but what about the places where is perfectly acceptable to kill someone because they stole from you.

Another question for you is, why does the woman have the right to play god? What if Einstien had been aborted? Or Edison? Or Newton? I mean seriously, there are thousands of abortions a day. What if we killed the person that would have found the cure for cancer or aids? Or the person that would have had a revolutionizing invention that completely changed the way we live. With that many abortions a day, it would be ignorant to say that hasn't have happened.

And most people who are pro-choice don't have kids. It sickens me to think that my daughter could have been aborted if my wife decided she wanted to have one. Not saying she did, but if she wanted one there would have been absolutely NOTHING I could have done to stop her. Do I know exactly what it's like to be pregnant for 9 months? No, but I lived with a pregnant woman, and that's good enough in my book.

You make being pregnant sounds like it's some kind of disease. My wife said feeling a life, yes LIFE, grow inside of her was the most increadible thing she's felt in her life. And you know what, feeling Katy kick for the first time was absolutely amazing.

You have your opinion, I have mine, and I doubt we'll change each others opinion on this matter.

that is a whole lot of what if's
heres one
what if Charles Manson had been aborted
what if John Wilkes Booth had been aborted and Lincoln wouldn't have been murdered
what if Osama Bin Laden had been aborted
come on, look at both sides here

Originally posted by jc Kyle:
blah... if you don't like abortion, then don't do it

my sentiments exactly

[FirebirdGT]

Originally posted by Mogobs30th:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yes thank you liberals

You are most welcome conservative christian fundamentalists. </font>[/QUOTE]BINGO!!

Abortion is not a medical issue. It is a religious issue. An issue where one groups beliefs are trying to be imposed on ALL. We removed that years ago and needs to stay removed.


As for the comment the Pro-choice is Pro-abortion, that is typical. To be pro-choice AGAIN is to allow the WOMAN to make the choice that is best in HER situation. Options! There are those who would take away those options, and leave only their "right" solution.

Free will and choice are being threatened on not only this issue but many other areas of my life by self-rightous religious groups who "know" what is right for all of us and expect all to follow their rules.

[Mighty Thor]

It is not only a religious issue it is a moral issue. Like I said, this thing was based on a lie. Lie builds up on itself.

Those of you that support it are in denial. What if I point a gun at a day old baby and shoot it. Then you guys would be in an uproar. What if I dump a baby in a dumpster. I would be considered a criminal. Abortion is nothing more than a direct conscious murder of a baby.

Here's a good one, what if a murderer murdered a woman in her first trimaster. What does our legal system call that, "Double homocide." Go figure.

Pro-choice is not what it truely means. I already made my statement above. To a pregnant woman choosing this is nothing more than a no-choice because this is only thing she is doing. That makes her pro-abortionist.

Again you liberals are avoiding that. Just call yourself Pro-abortionist, because that's what you are, for abortion. But go ahead and deny.

Yes, you have Free Will. But you also have Responsibility that comes with Free Will, don't you agree. You don't even have to be religious to believe in that. As human we set morals and laws in order to guide our free will. Why can't you guys see that Abortion is murder beyond morals.

[ September 29, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Mighty Thor ]