God, the thread

[ReodDai]

or it will let you join the matrix! [img]graemlins/dj.gif[/img]

[Timbo1969]

Originally posted by 98v6:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Machiavelli:
Its incredibly ignorant to not believe in a higher being of some sort, which I choose to call God.

Wow, you really hit the nail on the head here. :rolleyes:

There is no logical evidence that one exists. Therefore, it is ignorant to believe it's ignorant not to believe in one. Agnosticism is the only philosophical viewpoint supported by the world we live in, which is basically that God's existence or nonexistance cannot be proven. It doesn't state a stance on whether HE exists because there is no evidence either way, it pretty much just says you believe what you believe and I'll believe what I want.

But, here's a little puzzle in our language. Supposedly, God created the universe. But, universe is pretty much just a term that refers to everything. So, how could God create everything, when the phrase everything has to include him? It is impossible for something to create itself, and even philosophers don't typically delve into where God came from.

To me, the only logical explanation for the existence of the universe is that it's always been there, which could be true of God too, but it seems more likely for an infinite amount of space and time (and probably matter and energy) to simply spawn things because it is constantly changing than for there to be some all-powerful being which controls everything in reality. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Machiavelli on this one. You have to remember one thing 98v6. You can't apply finite human logic to one who is infinite, ominpotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Human science will never disprove the existence of God, as for proving his existence, that is done through faith not through scientific studies. Is it God's fault that mankind has lost faith in him? No, it is mankinds own fault, for thinking to highly of it's science, and ability. God put us here to worship him, but gave us free will, as he wants a people who choose to worship him. It's in the Bible..pick it up and read it. Great is the way to destruction, but narrow is the path to righteousness.

[ReodDai]

Bible was written by men. Not a man but many men; thus it is fallible. The loophole in religion is the simple idea that at any time if you get argued into a corner you can state "..because God said so" or "..because it was God's will". We on the other hand actually have to come up with a real reason for why things happen.

Consider this for a moment. Men did create the idea of god on their own and devised religion. God does not exist. However the people that created the ideology created it in a manner so that it cannot be disprove or proven. Thus ensuring that people would cling to it like a life raft for all eternity. Just an idea...

[3.4 [deployed]]

also consider this: Men did create the idea of god on their own and devised religion, AND there really is a God. ALso consider that our whole universe could be an atom on the fingernail of some giant "thing" and tat it wil all end when it statrts to bite it's nails. Also consider the fact that the 64 GTO IS the first muscle car, beating out the Mustang, despite the huge size difference. Then consider that it could be soeones lack of faith, in anything , that makes them not believe in any god/diety.

[ReodDai]

Originally posted by 3.4 [deployed]:
Also consider the fact that the 64 GTO IS the first muscle car, beating out the Mustang, despite the huge size difference.

[img]graemlins/rock.gif[/img]

[navyblue2000]

Originally posted by 98v6:

Yeah, me too, but opposites. I hate baptists because they think that their way is the only way, and that's pretty much bashing everybody else whether they are rude about it or not. I choose not to believe, and I respect people who do as long as they can respect me even though I don't.

wow, nice blaket statement there bud.

I'm baptist. did I ever say I didn't respect your belief? I don't think so.

[wannabe]

First: I will never understand why science and religion have to be mutually exclusive concepts. Why can no one entertain the idea that G-d (I know I didn't spell it out, it's a thing we Jews do) CAUSED the big bang? And utilized that in the Creation? And caused evolution? Who decided that just because it's NOT mentioned in the Bible that it's not true?

Second: To Christians: Stop trying to use the Bible to convince atheists, Jews, Buddhists, etc., to convert. We don't accept the New Testament as a legitimate text, therefore the words therein hold no inherent value (especially in light of the fact that significant portions of the New Testament were purposely deleted). If you must prosyletize, find something other than "read the Bible."

Regarding whether or not there is a supreme being: My personal feeling is that those who choose not to believe in a religion and corresponding code of behavior are not doing so out of a belief, but rather selfishness. They choose not to accept the restrictions that a religious moral code would impose upon them. Atheists have no internal force compelling them to do good, no external force to tell them what IS good. They choose to believe this way so that they can believe that whatever THEY think is right, is actually right. This idea of moral relativisim (especially popular among liberals) is philosophically and morally bankrupt.

[ReodDai]

Secular humanism most aethists will follow this. Religion is created by man and thus holds his moral ethics. The morality of man and the morality of God are the same. However if someone chooses to do "good" using their own free will and not the constraints of a religion then they SHOULD be considered more enlightened then the blind followers.
Also most aethists will argue there is no right and wrong except what the individual perceives at the time. My idea of what is right in a situation doesn't always follow what my brethren concieves as the correct moral choice (REGARDLESS OF RELIGION).

Nice post btw wannabe.

[wannabe]

The problem with your statement, ReodDai, is that it relies on the individual to make a judgement on what is right or wrong. Again, without a given moral code, how is one to truly know? Moral relativism is almost universally regarded as without philosophical value. There simply are things that are good or evil, right or wrong. The lack of a set moral code gives the individual too much power and makes it far to easy to justify actions which are actually wrong/evil/bad. Even if we assume (which I don't), that the moral code is written by humans and not a supreme being, it was not written by a single human, but rather a large group of learned humans. In Judaism, our moral code and Law are constantly evolving, because we have rabbinical courts (called Beyt Din) constantly making rulings on critical aspects of the code. Therefore, even if one assumes that there is no G-d, that we created the myth, this moral code would still hold significant moral worth.

[ReodDai]

Still not quite getting my point but I see exactly where your coming from. My point is your council to tell others around the world what is right or wrong? Every individual knows the basics of what is right or wrong regardless of wether or not you lay down the facts. I'm an aethist. I lack these morals you speak of yet I won't go outside and slaughter the first person I see. Think of the crusades. The "Holy Wars" political battles fought under the guise of religion. Do you see the aethist wars? No we stand united under our own humanity. Not divided under God's who are all basically the same yet their followers are too blind to realize nothing but the faults in another's religion.

[wannabe]

I believe that actions like the Crusades and the current Muslim fundamentalist movement come not from religion, but from the bastardization thereof, and from social conditions that lead to anger. I think that at best we have to acknowledge that people in general, whether religious or not, are capable of great evil. I simply believe that, excluding situations such as the Crusades, a religious person can more likely be counted on to do what can be objectively qualified as "good." You state that you inherently know right from wrong, but how do you know? What external source do you have to prove that? It's also illogical to assume that humans inherently know right from wrong. Young children have to be taught not to hit, to share, etc. Morality is not inherent, it is learned.

[Trunks]

Originally posted by 3.4 [deployed]:
ALso consider that our whole universe could be an atom on the fingernail of some giant "thing" and tat it wil all end when it statrts to bite it's nails.

Dude you think about that too? i thought i was the only one, like i've htought before stuff like what if the planets and stars are really atoms of the superior being and that space is the vacuum between the atoms. HAHA its awesome to know i'm not alone in a theory like that! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ReodDai]

Religion breeds those wars. Why does the lack of religion have to lead to a lack of morality? Are you telling me that because I don't believe in God and his laws, I can forgo the laws of man as well? Who teaches the children these morals of yours? God or their parents? Are my religious parents failures and outcasts because they failed to raise a religious child? However they succeded in raising a moral one. Religion was spawned in blood and will forever be soaked in it.

[ReodDai]

Originally posted by Trunks:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3.4 [deployed]:
ALso consider that our whole universe could be an atom on the fingernail of some giant "thing" and tat it wil all end when it statrts to bite it's nails.

Dude you think about that too? i thought i was the only one, like i've htought before stuff like what if the planets and stars are really atoms of the superior being and that space is the vacuum between the atoms. HAHA its awesome to know i'm not alone in a theory like that! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting idea ;)

[wannabe]

Originally posted by ReodDai:
Religion breeds those wars. Why does the lack of religion have to lead to a lack of morality? Are you telling me that because I don't believe in God and his laws, I can forgo the laws of man as well? Who teaches the children these morals of yours? God or their parents? Are my religious parents failures and outcasts because they failed to raise a religious child? However they succeded in raising a moral one. Religion was spawned in blood and will forever be soaked in it.

Again, I don't believe that religion breeds those wars, but rather social conditions. As a student of history, I can say with relative confidence that wars are almost never fought for a single reason. I'm not saying that you can forgo the laws of man, but the laws of man are not necessarily a moral code. Sure, they cover the big stuff, like don't kill. But there are an infinite number of daily decisions that require a moral decision, like how much charity to give, or how to treat your family, that are simply not covered by man's law. Judaism teaches that both must be followed, unless the law of man contradicts Jewish law, in which case Jewish law prevails. Your parents aren't failures for not raising a religious child; however, without an active parent teaching right from wrong, you'd never have known the difference.