How many of you guys think that Saddam should have stayed in power

[memphis_raines]

Originally posted by shock_core:
Bush is taking our country to see though with his family vendetta. Were just sitting there, getting our people killed, while OPEC cranks up oil prices. We are not the world’s police. We are not the Swat team of the planet. No one told us how to fight our civil war. No one came in a stopped the south from getting themselves owned... No one came in and captured Lincoln. This wasn't our problem. No matter what, he’s still just the president of a sandbox. I mean, we have too many problems in our country as it is. We don’t need to be worrying about what Germany said, why French people don't bathe or whose coming to the next NATO convention. I mean, lo and behold unto ye sinners that we take care of our country first. Our economy sucks, the job market sucks, and we still have homeless, jobless… But I guess that didn’t happen because that would have been the smart thing to do.

Sorry for the rant… I just kind of got going and didn’t stop, i dont mean to flame or piss people off or start a war. just stating my opinion on this

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!! Finally, someone with enough sense to see that this whole sh*t is nothing more than a scam to jack up oil prices. We pay more at the pump, and the Bush family is making a f*ckin' killing off of it. Bush Sr. did it and made a fortune, and now "dubya's" doing the same exact thing.

And shock's right about the rest of it. Why are we so worried about what they do anyway? We should be worried about the fact that our own government is selling out our jobs left and right. And instead of giving millions of dollars to Iraq, why don't we give it to these AMERICANS who have been working their a$$es off for years, and now no longer have jobs thanks to our wonderful President everybody's so fond of!!

It makes me wonder about the handgun ban. If they confiscate all our guns, are they gonna give them to Iraq too?? It wouldn't surprise me at all.....

It's pretty obvious that the baby boomer generation will more than likely bankrupt the Social Security system, which means people my age probably won't see a dime of this money we've been paying in for years. But instead of maybe putting some extra cash into the system, let's send it all to Iraq!! Hell, why don't we all just mail our whole damn paycheck over there!

That just drives me insane. Everybody talks about Kerry being a little b*tch and Bush being such as bada$$ when it comes to this war stuff....if he's so bad, why is he kissing their a$$es now and sending them OUR money??

[skorpion317]

i love all the conspiracy theories too....everyone's so friggin paranoid. "Bush did it to make money for himself", "America allowed 9/11 to happen" etc. etc. You people watch a little too much TV.

[3.4 slow to go]

Originally posted by skorpion317:
i love all the conspiracy theories too....everyone's so friggin paranoid. "Bush did it to make money for himself", "America allowed 9/11 to happen" etc. etc. You people watch a little too much TV.

a little [img]graemlins/stickpoke.gif[/img]

[ABH]

It is not a scam to drive up oil prices. If it was, the gas I buy would be back at $2.00 instead of $1.77.

What drives up the price? War for one. (D'oh) Cutting off the flow of crude for another. Or this: NEW YORK (Reuters) -- The largest blackout in North American history forced seven oil refineries to shut down in the United States and Canada on Thursday night, threatening already thin fuel stockpiles. The loss of more than 750,000 barrels per day (bpd) of fuel production capacity comes at a time when the United States, the world's largest energy consumer, faces the lowest gasoline supplies in nearly eight months.
Remember that? Just last year.

But then there is refinery capacity. The US does not have that many. And they are running at capacity.There is more oil to refine than refineries to do it. And it is going to shrink:

HOUSTON - As many as 20 U.S. refineries will close in the next three to five years as refiners face upgrades too expensive for small plants to comply with new environmental rules, refining executives said at a Houston energy conference this week.


The new rules, which aim to lower the amount of sulfur in gasoline by 2006, will require U.S. refiners to spend up to $20 billion in plant upgrades for 123 refineries producing automotive fuels. Another 26 U.S. refineries do not produce motor fuels.
The refineries most likely to close are those with crude oil throughput capacities beneath 100,000 barrels per day, the executives said.


Then you have the emerging economies of India and China. The more they industrialize, of course the more fuel they will use.

So Saudi Arabia increases its output. But can it match what is being used? Possibly. But they can't do it by themselves.

There is no conspiracy. There is nothing more than the time honored law of supply and demand.
So if you want cheaper gas, you do the following:

1: Increase the refining capacity.
2: Decrease consumption.
3: Both.

If you remember, very soon after 9/11 many stations were selling reg gas at $4.99/gal. But that changed quick. And those stations got into trouble.

So if there is a conspiracy, why didn't it stay there?

[ September 14, 2004, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: ABH ]

[memphis_raines]

Originally posted by skorpion317:
i love all the conspiracy theories too....everyone's so friggin paranoid. "Bush did it to make money for himself", "America allowed 9/11 to happen" etc. etc. You people watch a little too much TV.

Exactly the opposite, my friend. I rarely even watch tv, to be honest with you. It's just when I do, I don't fall for all the bullsh*t that comes out of the little black propaganda box like most Americans. If my theory is only a "conspiracy theory", why is there always something going on in the news with the Bush family and oil? I rest my case.

As far as gas prices getting lower goes, that's an easy one. You think Bush would get re-elected with gas prices at $2.50 a gallon? Very doubtful. I actually have a bet with a friend that gas will be $1.65 or lower by election time.

[3.4 slow to go]

^^^ the broken records keeps going, and going, and going..........

[TMGSIX]

Originally posted by shock_core:
Well, in my opinion… he should still be there

I mean, sure he lied. We all lie. Bush Jr. lied. Remember how Iraq had WMD in stock piles laying around the country? You don’t? Maybe it’s because we didn’t find any, or maybe they just didn’t have any…hmm...Anyways, sure he tried to assassinate Bush Sr. So what? We beat the living hell out of his country twice. So, like I said, Bush Jr. decides to get on his father’s band wagon and jump Iraq for ‘WMD and Al-queda’ (sp?). We didn’t find ****. Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch. So what are we going to do now? They hate us. The rest of the planet hates us, save like 2 dinky countries. So what’s the plan now? We put like a whole bunch of our own men in a country that nobody likes, so they can sit. Too many have died already. I mean, of course in war there’s going to be loss. But this war is pointless. --->We should be finding and beating on the people who caused 9/11. <--- Bush is taking our country to see though with his family vendetta. Were just sitting there, getting our people killed, while OPEC cranks up oil prices. We are not the world’s police. We are not the Swat team of the planet. No one told us how to fight our civil war. No one came in a stopped the south from getting themselves owned... No one came in and captured Lincoln. This wasn't our problem. No matter what, he’s still just the president of a sandbox. I mean, we have too many problems in our country as it is. We don’t need to be worrying about what Germany said, why French people don't bathe or whose coming to the next NATO convention. I mean, lo and behold unto ye sinners that we take care of our country first. Our economy sucks, the job market sucks, and we still have homeless, jobless… But I guess that didn’t happen because that would have been the smart thing to do.

Sorry for the rant… I just kind of got going and didn’t stop, i dont mean to flame or piss people off or start a war. just stating my opinion on this

This is by far one of the most ignorant posts I have read on this forum in a long time. You honestly should consider educating yourself further before making obscene and inaccurate remarks such as these. Millions of people have been murdered by this man, and you think if he should stay in power? And since when has it not been the responsibility, better yet the privilage, of the powerful to help weak? We should stand idly by people who simply disagree with one mans policies have to watch his wife and children be tortured and murdered before meeting the same demise? Should we also stay within our borders and wait for islamic jihads to detonate a nuclear or biological device in our country? No, we should lead a collalition determined to rid the world of terrorists who would fly planes into towers or siege a school filled with children. This war was never about wmd's but about the evil bastard who had used them in the past and was determined to do so again. WMD's are just like guns, they dont kill people, people kill people. And Saddam was as deadly as they get.

[ September 14, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: TMGSIX ]

[camarov62003]

Originally posted by TMGSIX:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shock_core:
Well, in my opinion… he should still be there

I mean, sure he lied. We all lie. Bush Jr. lied. Remember how Iraq had WMD in stock piles laying around the country? You don’t? Maybe it’s because we didn’t find any, or maybe they just didn’t have any…hmm...Anyways, sure he tried to assassinate Bush Sr. So what? We beat the living hell out of his country twice. So, like I said, Bush Jr. decides to get on his father’s band wagon and jump Iraq for ‘WMD and Al-queda’ (sp?). We didn’t find ****. Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch. So what are we going to do now? They hate us. The rest of the planet hates us, save like 2 dinky countries. So what’s the plan now? We put like a whole bunch of our own men in a country that nobody likes, so they can sit. Too many have died already. I mean, of course in war there’s going to be loss. But this war is pointless. ---&gt;We should be finding and beating on the people who caused 9/11. &lt;--- Bush is taking our country to see though with his family vendetta. Were just sitting there, getting our people killed, while OPEC cranks up oil prices. We are not the world’s police. We are not the Swat team of the planet. No one told us how to fight our civil war. No one came in a stopped the south from getting themselves owned... No one came in and captured Lincoln. This wasn't our problem. No matter what, he’s still just the president of a sandbox. I mean, we have too many problems in our country as it is. We don’t need to be worrying about what Germany said, why French people don't bathe or whose coming to the next NATO convention. I mean, lo and behold unto ye sinners that we take care of our country first. Our economy sucks, the job market sucks, and we still have homeless, jobless… But I guess that didn’t happen because that would have been the smart thing to do.

Sorry for the rant… I just kind of got going and didn’t stop, i dont mean to flame or piss people off or start a war. just stating my opinion on this

This is by far one of the most ignorant posts I have read on this forum in a long time. You honestly should consider educating yourself further before making obscene and inaccurate remarks such as these. Millions of people have been murdered by this man, and you think if he should stay in power? And since when has it not been the responsibility, better yet the privilage, of the powerful to help weak? We should stand idly by people who simply disagree with one mans policies have to watch his wife and children be tortured and murdered before meeting the same demise? Should we also stay within our borders and wait for islamic jihads to detonate a nuclear or biological device in our country? No, we should lead a collalition determined to rid the world of terrorists who would fly planes into towers or siege a school filled with children. It is truly sad that you think our president simply getting revenge for his family. This conflict is not about the Bush family getting rich, it's about protecting the lives of all humans,not just americans, or ungrateful people like yourself. </font>[/QUOTE]well said

[Denis]

1. We only help the weak in areas where we have a strategic, political, or economic interest. We ignore them otherwise, including within our own country.
2. We have also helped to oppress the weak in areas where we have a strategic, political, or economic interest.

It's time to stop hiding behind this argument. If this were truly the case we would be invading many more countries for this purpose, including some countries that are supposedly our allies.

[TMGSIX]

No one is hiding behind any arguement, saddam needed to be removed. The principle in foreign policy must be: If you are a dictator, you are in trouble. Period. We don't need any excuses to overthrow you. You are by definition illegitimate. Your end can come at any moment. No laws protect you. Until we adhere to that principle, the "international community" will continue to dance with dictators. We legitimize them by pretending they are just another head of state to be negotiated with. We inflate their power and increase their control over their populace by treating them as equals. It must be made clear that every dictator who has not gained power by the consent of the governed is illegitimate and has no more claim to power or respect than does the lowest common criminal.

[Denis]

So I'm guessing this also means our good buddy and anti-terrorist ally in Pakistan, General Pervez Musharraf?

[TMGSIX]

Absolutely, ALL people should have the right to elect those who will govern their lives.

[Denis]

Which pretty much brings me back to my original point. While I admire your idealism and certainly wish it weren't so, the fact is that the US supports dictators who pay lip service to our goals. Thus, when someone claims that we invade a country and overthrow a dictator to help the poor and oppressed, it rings kind of hollow considering this policy is not consistently applied.

Just FYI...
The World's Dictators in 2004

[ September 14, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Denis ]

[shock_core]

Millions of people have been murdered by this man, and you think if he should stay in power? And since when has it not been the responsibility, better yet the privilage, of the powerful to help weak? We should stand idly by people who simply disagree with one mans policies have to watch his wife and children be tortured and murdered before meeting the same demise? Should we also stay within our borders and wait for islamic jihads to detonate a nuclear or biological device in our country? No, we should lead a collalition determined to rid the world of terrorists who would fly planes into towers or siege a school filled with children. This war was never about wmd's but about the evil bastard who had used them in the past and was determined to do so again. WMD's are just like guns, they dont kill people, people kill people. And Saddam was as deadly as they get.

That’s why we should go after the Islamic jihads and the terrorists. I agree that people who run in and shoot up an entire school and crash planes into the WTC need to be brought to justice. But what has Iraq done to us that we haven’t paid back in Desert Fox and Storm? Sure Bush said Iraq was selling wmds to al-queda, but we still didn't find any that they had or could have sold. But he said so, so I guess that means it’s true. Would you believe me if I told you my penis was 15’ long? And Bush made a huge deal about the wmds. You can't say that he didn't. No one can. It was one of the main reasons he sent troops into Iraq. And how do you know, with conviction and fact, that he was determined to use and could use wmds again? We didn’t find any, which tells me that he didn’t have any to use. I mean, we nuked Japan in order to end WWII. Couldn’t we technically use them again? What’s to prevent us from using them again? The world hating us? Too late for that… You don’t see anyone invading us looking for our wmds that are still in one piece.

I never said Saddam wasn't evil, wasn't killing people, and didn’t use his power to do bad things. It just wasn't our fight. Sure we can help out here and there, but why do we have to fight their fights for them? To me America is starting to seem like the nosey neighbor. We have to get involved in everything while we neglect our own.

The principle in foreign policy must be: If you are a dictator, you are in trouble. Period. We don't need any excuses to overthrow you. You are by definition illegitimate. Your end can come at any moment. No laws protect you. Until we adhere to that principle, the "international community" will continue to dance with dictators. We legitimize them by pretending they are just another head of state to be negotiated with.

Technically, they are the leaders of the other countries. If all dictatorships are illegitimate, then why aren't we invading China, Cuba or North Korea? Sure there are some bad dictators out there. Hitler, Castro, Stalin… etc. But if these people are being oppressed, they need to step up to bat. We died fighting each other because of different views in the Civil war. How is their war any different? We stepped up to bat, it’s their turn. We shouldn’t be the police of the world. But now that we are, we can’t always be there. Look where helping the Iraqi people has gotten us. The Entire World Hates Us.

Btw. What is with all this conspiracy about Bush you guys are talking about? That doesn’t even make sense. I'm Done with this thread...

[TMGSIX]

Supporting those who pay lip service is a far cry from supporting those who murder and torture millions of human beings. I agree that the policy is not always applied, but that does not make invalid. I am well aware that Saddam was not the only dicator, and I am also aware that the world is and will be a safer place with him and his sons out of power.