Welfare-Important Issue?

[mattsv6]

we no how it works. but we are discussing how too keep the money out of the people that dont need it.

[95fbirdkid]

Poor people don't have money because they haven't benefitted like the rich ****s, and rich people do. It's either labor or money, but the same debt is paid by everyone.

What about the rich people who arnt born into money, and work for it? How about the poor people who are just lazy ****s and havn't just caught "a bad break"? Labor or money? What about the people on welfare who live off it and make no realistic attempt to work and get off of it?

[98v6]

why don't we ask a bunch of questions that'll never be answered?

[95fbirdkid]

Its called debating, you cant just state something as a fact and then not expect someone to have rebutle questions [img]graemlins/stickpoke.gif[/img]

[98v6]

no, what i stated WAS fact. you just happened to point out that the fact takes place in a perfect system, that's how it works in theory. We don't live in a perfect system, therefore there are free riders and i didn't say anything about people who were born with money being less worthy than those who were not. It's just how the system works, welfare is a good location from which to view society as a whole in my opinion.

[95fbirdkid]

Poor people don't have money because they haven't benefitted like the rich ****s

I read that as you saying poor people are poor b/c they havnt had things handed to them like the rich. sorry if i miss interpreted


and since we dont live in a perfect world, you should decide on things like welfare from the perspective of how it works in a perfect system, you need to look at how it really works

[Oglar]

I'm not going to read this post the whole way threw. But i did read the first couple posts. And all i have to say is that most of you are ignorant. My G/F is on WIC. Which i consider welfare, and truthfully it doesn't pay for enough to help her raise her 1 and a half year old daughter. She isn't on it cause she had a child out of wed lock or cause she doesn't work. No she is on it cause her Loser *** republican father cheated on her, while she was pregant. So she is just getting back on her feet again and its helping her. Before any of you fools go bashing people on some kinda welfare( Lazy black crack babies comes to mind), realize that most of the people on it aren't on it cause they want to be or because its there fault.

[95fbirdkid]

Originally posted by Oglar:
I'm not going to read this post the whole way threw. But i did read the first couple posts. And all i have to say is that most of you are ignorant. My G/F is on WIC. Which i consider welfare, and truthfully it doesn't pay for enough to help her raise her 1 and a half year old daughter. She isn't on it cause she had a child out of wed lock or cause she doesn't work. No she is on it cause her Loser *** republican father cheated on her, while she was pregant. So she is just getting back on her feet again and its helping her. Before any of you fools go bashing people on some kinda welfare( Lazy black crack babies comes to mind), realize that most of the people on it aren't on it cause they want to be or because its there fault.

This isnt about welfare being a good thing or bad thing, or it being the persons fault or not. It's about the government forcing us who arnt poor to pay for those who are. If you do read more posts you'll see that I said i'm not against helping those who are less fortunate, i'm against being required to, and having the government decide how much for me to help.

I suggest before you come into a discussion, you atleast read what has been said.

[imported_admin]

Originally posted by wannabe:
Welfare does not get anyone skills or a job. What we need is to allow people to keep more of their own money which can then be donated to faith-based or other charitable organizations who work to teach SKILLS and vocations to the poor. The only way to make a poor man wealthier is to teach him a skill.

This is not true. How many people on welfare graduated public school? Very small number, right? Even if you hand someone a free public education, some people do not want it. People that live off the government will not suddenly say "oh, thank you for teaching me how to take care of myself, I'll go get a job now!". The motivation must come from within. If they have that motivation then they will succeed regardless of socioeconomic status. If they do not, they will fail.

People who even go on welfare are bound and determined to be losers. Why bother helping them? They'll NEVER help themselves. If you can't even help yourself, don't expect me to help you.

Originally posted by mattsv6:
a family that loses everything they have n a fire, PRIME CANDIDATE for welfare till everything is ok.

NO!!! That family should have THOUGHT AHEAD and gotten HOMEOWNER'S/RENTER'S INSURANCE. People like that make me sick. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

Its even worse when it comes to life insurance. People complain that they can't afford the premiums yet when the breadwinner of their family dies and they are left on the street they expect EVERYONE ELSE to feel pity for them and take care of them. Um, no. I have to pay good money for Jenn's and my life insurance because I am RESPONSIBLE and take CARE of my family--tough **** if you're not. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Why should I have to pay yet sob story families don't?

Heck, this even happened on 9/11. There were wealthy businessmen who were too freaking cheap to get a decent policy to protect their family, yet when they were killed they expected the 9/11 Fund to pay their heirs to prevent them from being left on the street. No way.

[imported_admin]

On the subject of welfare, here's a basic economic principle for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION

Just because two events are correlated does not necessarily mean one causes the other. The example I'm going to use here is education and income.

People seem to believe that a good education CAUSES you to eventually attain a high income. Likewise, people believe that being from a wealthy family CAUSES you to receive a good education.

Not so.

There is a third element at work that causes a person to succeed BOTH in school and in the workforce. (Actually, two factors.)

That element is known as hard work/determination/will to succeed, whatever you want to call it. Another that works hand-in-hand with hard work is simply intelligence.

Combine intelligence with a strong work ethic and an individual will succeed both in school and at work, regardless of their background: from the 'hood or from Beverly Hills. Lack either of those two and you will fail.

Sure, lazy rich kids might be able to get into expensive schools but they will fail out. Likewise, hard working kids that are just plain dumb might succeed in early level education but at the advanced/graduate level they will fail.

And don't even mention that poor people can't afford school... bull****. There are plenty of rags to riches stories out there--just open the paper. Jabul or Sheneequa from the 'hood made it through law school with a 4.0 because they were SMART and WORKED HARD. They did NOT do it because someone just handed them money.

Food for thought.

Speaking of food, I'm going to head to the fridge and get some dinner that I worked hard to earn and pay for. I don't need a government agency to provide for me. I'd be embarassed to be seen at a welfare institution.

[95fbirdkid]

Stefan, although I mostly agree with you on this one, I just want to play devils advocate real fast.

I agree it should not be our responsibility to take care of those who did not plan ahead, but is it the childs fault that his father didnt have insurance? Thinking like this would make me want to donate to charity, but I dont think its the govn'ts place to decide that for us.

[98v6]

I read that as you saying poor people are poor b/c they havnt had things handed to them like the rich. sorry if i miss interpreted

no, rich people benefit from society. plain and simple, they buy nice things. Period. Without society as a whole to provide the things that they buy, they are nothing, money is nothing. It doesn't matter how they get the money.

[98v6]

It's about the government forcing us who arnt poor to pay for those who are.

No, it's about rich people paying for the benefits they reap from society. When was the last time that you saw a rich person do a day's work? In a convience store? Not in my life time. Look, day to day, rich people don't do near as much work as poor people. And, without poor people, society wouldn't function. Therefore, there has to be some price for the availability of goods to the rich, and some compensation for the lack of means to buy the things they want to the poor.

[ June 02, 2004, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: 98v6 ]

[98v6]

People seem to believe that a good education CAUSES you to eventually attain a high income. Likewise, people believe that being from a wealthy family CAUSES you to receive a good education.

Not so.

There is a third element at work that causes a person to succeed BOTH in school and in the workforce. (Actually, two factors.)

That element is known as hard work/determination/will to succeed, whatever you want to call it. Another that works hand-in-hand with hard work is simply intelligence.

Just hard work won't get you anything in the world. Look at the guys who work for my dad, $6.50 per hour. They have no education, which pretty much denies them success on any practical level, and therefore no means by which to advance themselves. They work, they toil, but they will NEVER be where my dad is because they do not have the necessary education.

Speaking of food, I'm going to head to the fridge and get some dinner that I worked hard to earn and pay for. I don't need a government agency to provide for me. I'd be embarassed to be seen at a welfare institution.

wow. typical arrogant american. Why don't you realize that those families should not be forced to suffer their fathers' consequences when society can help? That's why we have society... to HELP EACH OTHER OUT! but nooooo... you want to keep all you earn! go live in a ****ing hole in the desert. You work hard, you eat good, and nobody else gets anything of what you earn. people are so greedy.. we live in a collectivistic society today, there is nothing you can do about it and no amount of rush limbaugh is going to change that.

[ June 02, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: 98v6 ]

[95fbirdkid]

o, it's about rich people paying for the benefits they reap from society. When was the last time that you saw a rich person do a day's work? In a convience store? Not in my life time. Look, day to day, rich people don't do near as much work as poor people.

BULL****. My fathers worth over a million, you know what he does for a living, hes a captain on the columbus fire department.

and you know how rich people pay for what they get out of society? THEY PAY FOR IT, why should someone who is rich have to pay poor people for being rich?

You work hard, you eat good, and nobody else gets anything of what you earn. people are so greedy

Thats the way it should be, why work hard to get a good job w/ good pay if you dont get what you earn?

You my friend ( :rolleyes: )sound like a ****ing commi

Isnt the American dream: if you work hard in life you can get ahead? I DONT WORK TO HELP OTHERS, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO KEEP WHAT A WORK FOR. If you dont like it GET THE FU(K OUT OF MY COUNTRY.