Greetings from London...Can ya advise?

[Komster]

After seeing a pic of a 96 Firebird with a huge bonnet vent, I become kinda interested to know more about these cars as they like they pack quite a punch and the styling is pretty cool too.

Ive always been into Performance Jap Cars and currently own a Celica Gt4, I believe you guys call them, the All Trac (2.0,16V,4wd,turbo.) Pushing about 250 Bhp and once tuned, close to 270. Its a exceptionally reliable car that performs fantastically in every respect, brakes, handling (obviously, as its 4x4, etc).....SO, Im hoping the proposed Firebird will deliver just as well in all departments!

As I know very little about these cars, I would appreciate your help and advice on the Firebird.
Im looking at a 96 onwards as I understand it, that’s when the traction control was introduced. The Ram air versions with that hooooj bonnet appeals to me.

Economy is paramount, so it'll have to be a lesser engine, not the 5.7. We pay up to the equiv of $6.50 a gallon. (Yeah, I know, friggin criminal!)

The T/A Model having the larger 5.7 engine is alas out of the question!....So, with
This in mind, what are my options? Am I going to get any performance from a lesser engine or just great looks from the shell?
(The Celica GT4 (All trac) gives me between 20-35 Mpg and can pull a 0-60 of 5.7 with 160 Mph.) Can you advise on the Best Bhp/Tourque from max Mpg = which engine or model to go for?

Any info, esp on reliability, mpg, octane of fuel needed, things to watch out for, performance (0-60 & top end) “tunability”, ie, how much extra bhp would a de-cating the exhaust and cold air induction make, can the ecu be re-mapped, etc!
Anything would be very much appreciated!

Sorry to ramble on, but as Im sure you all appreciate, a car is more than just the some of its parts and I wanna know what I may be getting into!

Many Thanks,

Komster [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Vracer111]

Hello and welcome. There are only two engine grades of F-bodies: the base V-6 and the V-8. The 1998-2003 3.8L V-6 is what I would recommend since from 1998+ the base cars finally came standard with disk brakes at all 4 corners and came with stiffer springs also (still a little too soft though for serious performance).

As for gas mileage, when cruising on the highway with the stock 3.23 rear end, I have averaged 33mpg on long trips. Around town I think the mileage is much worse though...I'm guessing about 20mpg depending on driving habits. And the gas used is 87 octane here.

In the handling department, stock the F-body is very decent - but you really need to upgrade the dampers and swaybars to make the handling come alive. I took my '98 camaro to a local roadcourse a few months back for my first track weekend at Texas World Speedway. The only change from stock was the addition of Koni Single Adjustable Sport dampers (as the stock ones were well worn out) along with a K&N air filter and Flowmaster aftermarket exhaust. Oh and the tires were 245/50-16 Yokohama AVS ES-100's mounted on the stock 16X8 alloy wheels. I was very impressed with how it handled, and it was quite a rush taking a tight banked 100 degree turn 7 at 95 mph and comming off the straight a just around 120mph and braking to 80+mph for turn one. The decreasing radius Carousel turn was fun too once I got the line right and tracked in properly. The only section that I really had difficulty with was the Esses leading to the main straight - it just seemed like I could never get those right consistantly. Also I can't say enough about the stock brakes and pads, not once did they fade during the 2 track days I ran. The brake do the job very well! Only one issue with the braking system though - if you apply the brakes too fast/hard you get brake hop and that kinda upsets the car a little.

Soon after the Track weekend I attended the local autocross and had difficulty with it in the slaloms, even with the new Koni dampers. So between the Roadcourse and tighter autocross course the stock F-body (save for the Koni dampers) it became apparent that transitions were the weak point. One other thing that became obvious was that the stock power steering system has a problem boiling the power steering fluid at the Track and to a lesser extent when autocrossing. This can be fixed with a racing power steering pump for around $200. To fix the transitioning problem I went with the Hotchkis Sport front and rear "sway bar" set. And from last months autocross I can tell you that it really transitions very good now! Night and day difference from being behind in the slaloms to being able to precisely steer through the slaloms.
Still need to fix the power steering fluid boiling problem...going to get the racing geared pump for that.

The only thing about my F-body that I didn't like right off the bat was the shifter...I guess at 67k the stock shifter is just worn out. Finally after it getting harder to get into gear I just recently broke down and bought the Hurst Competition + shifter. The Hurst Competition + is the mod I have done to it yet as now it snick-snicks into gear with a better feel than my first car: a '90 Acura Integra. And since my car is mainly for the track I upgraded the steering wheel to a nice leather Sparco racing one. I love to drive the Camaro any chance I have now with the new shifter and smaller diameter steering wheel... [img]graemlins/love.gif[/img]

As far as comparing it to your All-Trac Celica, it won't give you the speed (around 118mph electronically limited governor - may be able to be removed), nor power (200hp and 225ftlb torque from the stock 3.8L - you can get superchargers kits for the 3.8L and make 300hp though... [img]graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] ), but I am sure it can outhandle an All-Trac Celica in the dry without any problem. Why would I say this? Because if you take a close look at the V-6 Camaro you will notice the front of the engine actually sits BEHIND the front axle line (meaning it is really a mid-engine vehicle). This allows for very good handling characteristics (even when considering its 3,200-3,300 lb weight): it turns on a dime under braking and is very easily steered with the throttle. The front heavy AWD Celica might have an advantage when the roads are snowy, water drenched, or covered in gravel, but given a dry surface the more balanced V-6 camaro just loves to take on corners.

If you check out the technical database section of the site you will find all the various specs and more info on the different year models along with vehicle capabilities ...LINK HERE...

[ September 18, 2004, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Vracer111 ]

[Komster]

Wow!......Thats a very informative post, thanks..

I would be VERY impressed if it can out handle the Gt4 though......Actually, VERY VERY impressed as Gt4's are reknowned for their handling, the more you push, the better they grip....

I'll reeeeely have to try out an F-Body now!

Shame about the power though!....I would've expected such a large engine to pump out a few more ponies than that though......We run up to 95-98 Octane here and Jap imports are timed to run on 100 Octane, which means shelling out on the expensive stuff if ya want the most from the engine.

[Niky]

Hey! Welcome! Awesome to see someone from England here. My father and half siblings live in Leicster (sp?) ... planning on visiting maybe next summer. He was born near London, not sure where tho. Either way, welcome!!

I've sent pictures of my car to my sister, and she has never seen one. Do you have them in England? If so, they must be extremely rare.

[maxcamaro]

shame about the power? get a v8 camaro, preferably an ls1, no lack of power there

[GreenDragon]

Hello,wellcome,The 5.7 isnt that bad of an engine on gas,But if your looking for power,dont get the V6,get the 5.7 [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ka50]

if you got 270hp eclipse, you won't be satisfied with 200hp bird. It has some torque, but it's not fast.

[ka50]

also gas mileage is only slightly different between v6 and v8. Check out www.carpoint.com for tech data

[skorpion317]

Originally posted by ka50:
if you got 270hp eclipse, you won't be satisfied with 200hp bird. It has some torque, but it's not fast.

it's not an eclipse, it's a celica.

A Celica GT4, to be exact. they were sold in the U.S. from 1988-1993 as the Celica All-Trac. AWD, 3S-GTE engine (2.0L turbocharged 4-cyl). this car was used by Toyota to win several WRC championships, with Carlos Sainz behind the wheel. In fact, a Carlos Sainz edition GT4 was released by Toyota in 1992, i believe. had a redesigned hood (to adjust for the water-to-air intercooler) and a new front bumper.

the 1988-89 versions pushed about 195 HP and 195 ft. lbs. of torque. 90-91 had a restyled body and bumped HP and torque to 200 each. 92-93 had the Carlos Sainz editions, with a water-to-air intercooler and new hood/front bumper. They were not released in the U.S. after that because of poor sales.

The GT4 was continued in other countries though. The 3S-GTE was bumped up to 250 HP and augmented with Toyota's VVTi technology (a more advanced version of Honda's VTEC system). Toyota enjoyed more success with this car until they were banned for rules violations. Toyota then took up interest in F1 racing. This led to the crappy high-revving no-torque engines Toyota is putting out now. it also allowed WRX's and Lancer Evo's to fill the void left by the Celica.

I used to own a 1990 Celica GT, so the GT4 is a god to the lower Celica owners. they are SICK cars. My celica was wrecked, unfortunately, so I bought a Camaro.

My advice to you, Komster, is to keep the GT4. mod the hell out of it, they are capable of 400+ HP with stock internals. it'll be much faster than a V6 f-body for much less money.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

if you have 100 otane there i would say get a 1999-2000 and up V6, HP tuners and advance your timing some more you could get a good amount of power b/c ours our tuned for like 86 octane.

also a turbo kit will put you in the 350 RWHP range with 100 octane.... and some tuning

but the V8 if you get the M6 and drive it like the book says too can get really good gas milage, but if you have you foot in the floor all the time......

[Komster]

Wow, thanks for the welcome guys! [img]smile.gif[/img]

CHECK OUT THE SKORPIAN!!!!....Dude, you know your stuff mate!

Toyota made 3 Gt4 models...

the St 165, St 185 and the St 205......The latter two having pop up headlights and the St185 coming in various forms as you correctly mentioned, with the Ltd edition Carols Sainz being the more superior [img]smile.gif[/img] They also made WRC versions and Wide Body, of which I am lucky to have.

Unfortunately, one NEVER see's a Firebird round here,......we cant afford the fuel! Then again, this week, my car has given me less than 17Mpg as had a race with a Civic-R, and dont let that small hatch back fool ya!......It'll rev to 9k and go on and on and on!....But in the end, he was the one picking up the soap!

Firebirds aren’t actually that expensive here, relative the amount of car ya getting....Ive seen a 2000 for £12500 ($22581)......Though Im pretty certain we're getting screwed as everything’s cheaper abroad. The major prob is servicing, parts and consumption.....I was kinda pondering on absorbing the negatives if the car positives would warrant it......However, the expertise just isnt available here and if that puppy breaks down, Im screwed!

I guess I'll just have to save up and get a Skyline and be done with it! getting them to 600BHP Is too easy for one not to!.....Its a shame you guys don’t get some of the cars we have here!!!(and vice versa!)

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally posted by Komster:
Wow, thanks for the welcome guys! [img]smile.gif[/img]

CHECK OUT THE SKORPIAN!!!!....Dude, you know your stuff mate!

Toyota made 3 Gt4 models...

the St 165, St 185 and the St 205......The latter two having pop up headlights and the St185 coming in various forms as you correctly mentioned, with the Ltd edition Carols Sainz being the more superior [img]smile.gif[/img] They also made WRC versions and Wide Body, of which I am lucky to have.

Unfortunately, one NEVER see's a Firebird round here,......we cant afford the fuel! Then again, this week, my car has given me less than 17Mpg as had a race with a Civic-R, and dont let that small hatch back fool ya!......It'll rev to 9k and go on and on and on!....But in the end, he was the one picking up the soap!

Firebirds aren’t actually that expensive here, relative the amount of car ya getting....Ive seen a 2000 for £12500 ($22581)......Though Im pretty certain we're getting screwed as everything’s cheaper abroad. The major prob is servicing, parts and consumption.....I was kinda pondering on absorbing the negatives if the car positives would warrant it......However, the expertise just isnt available here and if that puppy breaks down, Im screwed!

I guess I'll just have to save up and get a Skyline and be done with it! getting them to 600BHP Is too easy for one not to!.....Its a shame you guys don’t get some of the cars we have here!!!(and vice versa!)

most break down are minor stuff,

[TheBeast]

Compared to what you have now...

Handling:
Firebird < Celica

Acceleration:
Firebird < Celica

[Infernal]

Originally posted by Komster:
Firebirds aren’t actually that expensive here, relative the amount of car ya getting....Ive seen a 2000 for £12500 ($22581)......Though Im pretty certain we're getting screwed as everything’s cheaper abroad.

$22,581 is over twice what the car is worth in the US.

[Domestic Violence]

have they instituted the travel tax yet? i have some friends who work for london metro PD and they are trying to immigrate here over the ridiculous taxes. they told me there was a tax getting ready to come in that would require you to pay for every mile you drive.