Hybrids not saving you any money?

[Th3 RiCk]

Even if some of the hybrids aren't meeting the exact mpg they advertise, I'm sure they're pretty close. Take for example the Honda Insight that is said to get 60 mpg. At worst it gets 40 mpg, it's still better than a Camry that gets 30 mpg. Not to mention the Insight is only $20k so it's not overpriced by any means. And don't forget about the $2000 tax deduction for buying a hybrid car.

[HokieBird]

A Scion xA gets 32 mpg city and 37 highway. It costs $12730 msrp. It has about the same cargo capacity as the hybird civic and is nearly half the price (Civic msrp $21k). The hybrid civic gets 47 city 48 highway so many people are probably getting in the 30s somewhere.

Comparing the Insight to something similar you can look at the Toyota Echo which costs around $10,200 and gets 35 city/ 42 highway.

The differences in gas are not that big for the differences in price when you compare cars in the same class.

[JusFlyinBy]

Originally posted by black98V6:
just go buy used motorcycle for 4k get 35+mpg IN TOWN and move on ;)

Lol, yea right. I average 27 mpg with a combination of city and highway riding. If you want to putt around to get good gas mileage, buy a vespa, [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[black98V6]

that's all you are getting with an R6?? I ride an 1100 v-star and yeah it's a low revving 2 cylinder v-motor but still I get 35 if I beat the crap outta that bike and I know it's ALOT heavier than that r6, not to mention my fat *** on it. And I beat the crap outta that bike, not to mention that's alot of stop and go and alot of short trips which just eats up gas. On the highway I run around 50mpg depending on where and how I'm riding.

[JusFlyinBy]

Im always taching the RPM's out, so that doesn't help with gas mileage. If I were to ride normal and keep the RPM's below 8000, where this bike has no balls... I'd be pulling off gas mileage in the high 30's no doubt. But then I can't rocket out of a corner as fast and what fun is that? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I could use a good tuning too because of the high mount with removed baffle and plug, but I haven't decided to go with a Cobra system or Power Commander.

[camaro_speedemon]

Originally posted by JusFlyinBy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by camaro_speedemon:
Hybrids compared to economy cars probably won't save you much. Hybrid compaired to your average 20MPG car, yea, you're saving a huge bit.

Figuring you drive 15k miles a year, 30MPG = $1150 @ 2.30/gallon.
15k @ 20MPG - $1725 in gas. Meaning you save 575/year on gas.

Figure you get 40MPG with a hybrid. Same numbers, $862.5. You save $287 over an econobox, and 862 over your average sedan.... $85 over 5 years my ***. Thats just over $4k savings in gas over 5 years. What kind of special maintenance is needed on those cars anyways?

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt here, comparable sedans are anywhere from 3 to 5 grand cheaper right off the bat no?

For a crude example, lets for the hell of it say you only pay 1 grand more for the Hybrid. Thats saying that the Hybrid will devalue almost 3 thousand dollars more than your average sedan over 5 years which I don't think is too unrealistic. Theres 4 grand of "savings" right there.

That doesn't take into effect comparable cars get at least 25 mpg average and the fact that this company found the Hybrids to only pull off 32 mpg average in the city where these cars are supposed to shine. And whats it going to cost you for parts when those components start dying out?

We aren't comparing Hybrids to full size sedans or sports cars here. Obviously you will save then, but no more than if you were to go out and purchase a similarly equipped sedan, and that is the point.

I dunno... thats just what was said and Im sure they know much more about this then either of us, so who are we to say. </font>[/QUOTE]Did they do the test using the AC or not? If so, I believe the 32MPG figure they got. Using the AC compressor puts an incredible load on the motor. The thing easily eats up 20HP.

You have to drive these hybrids a certain way to get the most out of them.

[JusFlyinBy]

Yeah, I believe it. But its still interesting to know your average hybrid driver on a normal commute is actually not saving any money in the long run. I'll bet most people aren't aware of the special precautions you must take to ensure the best gas mileage. I for one assumed you could hop right in, drive normal, and save tons. What about a Hybrid in your area? Id assume the AC is on probably most of the year.

Even with excellent gas mileage, the big savings at the pump really nets you a lot less in the end because of the other factors; insurance, devalue, bla bla bla, etc... Thats pretty much all I was getting at.

[ August 26, 2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: JusFlyinBy ]

[dz]

Originally posted by HokieBird:
A Scion xA gets 32 mpg city and 37 highway. It costs $12730 msrp. It has about the same cargo capacity as the hybird civic and is nearly half the price (Civic msrp $21k). The hybrid civic gets 47 city 48 highway so many people are probably getting in the 30s somewhere.

Comparing the Insight to something similar you can look at the Toyota Echo which costs around $10,200 and gets 35 city/ 42 highway.

The differences in gas are not that big for the differences in price when you compare cars in the same class.

Ok, you can't be hypocrites about this. The hybrid civic says it gets 47 city 48 highway so that means people 'probably' get 30.

Using that analogy, you said that the scion xa gets 32 city, 37 highway. So people 'probably' get 15.

Anyways, if you're going to get a hyrid, go for the Toyota Prius. That thing gets 51 highway 60 city.

Regardless, there are tons of factors that we're not counting. The driver for example. Driving a hybrid is just like driving any car; it won't be at its most efficient when you first drive it. You have to feel the car out. The first day I got my camaro I was getting horrible gas mileage because I didn't drive stick too well. Now that I've driven it for a while, I get really good gas mileage. Usually my gas mileage beats what the car is even rated at.

(For reference, I don't own a hybrid. My old roommate has done lots of research on them and shared it with me though.)

[HokieBird]

Originally posted by dz:
Ok, you can't be hypocrites about this. The hybrid civic says it gets 47 city 48 highway so that means people 'probably' get 30.

You're right. When I wrote that I realized it was one sided and not a fair argument to say something like that about just the hybrid.

You are getting somewhere with the whole people having to feel the car out thing. I think part of the reason most of these cars aren't getting the advertised mpg is because people aren't educated on how to properly accelerate and brake with them. I would imagine that most of the customer base is not savy as to how the car actually works and is just buying it because they want to save money or help the enviroment. I haven't bought one of these cars so I can't say for sure if the dealers tell you how you should drive to get the best mpg possible.

I remember a magazine article I read where some editor and a toyota rep took a hybrid across a few states to an industry show and they couldn't hit anywhere near what the guy from Toyota was getting when he drove it.

All in all, I still don't think they are a good bang for your buck. Especially when that government tax deduction ends. After all the research I did for my school project I was hard pressed to come up with concrete reasons why people should buy them over a regular car.

[dz]

I half agree with you. Ideally, I think people should buy them. The technology itself might not be as good as expected, but it's better than normal. It's also much better on the environment and every little bit helps with that.

The price? Well, whenever any new technology comes out it's overpriced. Once these things become more and more popular though, the price will even out.

[HokieBird]

I think if people are looking at cars in the segment that these fit into then yes, they should atleast look into them. I don't think everyone should jump out of their SUVs (although I hate them, but thats another thread all together) and get hybrids.

While hybrids do create less emissions than a regular vehicle it isn't by that much and the real problems are large trucks that don't have to pass emissions and factories.

The whole pressuring people into thinking they will save the planet is dumb. The planet will be fine. When it gets tired of humans living on it it will let us know (don't read that as we should all polute as much as possible because I do plan on living here for a while). I just think its a little egotistical of humans to say "we have to save the plant".

[speedracer95v6]

Have you guys seen the new charger ad in "fortune"?

Seems they have a charger hybrid now........


.............................


burns gas and rubber! bada bing....


(yes cheesy, but their ad!)

[BLLDOGG]

Originally posted by HokieBird:
I just think its a little egotistical of humans to say "we have to save the plant".

its not about saving the planet, its about keeping hospitible.

[dz]

Originally posted by HokieBird:

While hybrids do create less emissions than a regular vehicle it isn't by that much and the real problems are large trucks that don't have to pass emissions and factories.

The whole pressuring people into thinking they will save the planet is dumb. The planet will be fine. When it gets tired of humans living on it it will let us know (don't read that as we should all polute as much as possible because I do plan on living here for a while). I just think its a little egotistical of humans to say "we have to save the plant".

The planet is clearly fine. The fact that in what was supposed to be summer/spring, we still got 40 degree weather is normal. The high amounts of natural disasters is normal. The fact that there's a hole in our ozone layer is normal. The fact that glaciers are starting to melt is normal.

Our planet isn't fine and it's rather arrogant to think that you don't have to worry about it. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but at least look at the big picture before claiming that hybrids aren't worth it. I'm no environmental freak, but I can at least recognize when something's f'd up.

Will everyone switching to hybrids solve the problem? No, probably not. But it'll definitely help slow the effect down until we can find some reasonable way to fix this. As far as I know, we haven't exactly mastered living on anywhere but our planet, so I'd imagine we should probably make sure that this place is safe to stay for a long time.

[camaro_speedemon]

Hehe, looks like people are modding the hybrids for better milage

http://www.southernillinoisan.com/ar...top/106070.txt

Engineers modify hybrid cars to get up to 250 mpg

CORTE MADERA, Calif. (AP) - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away.

Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret - a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store

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extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb - all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids - and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence.

Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism.

"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available.

Others are modifying hybrids, too.

Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."