Presidential Debate Opinions

[HAZ-Matt]

Originally posted by MrCoffee:
But I loved the way my man George W was up there with the "b!tch I run this shyt" poses...That my boy.

Wow. That does not sound excessively idiotic in the least. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Linxs:
Kerry also flip-flopped (correct me if I am wrong) in the debate...
Anyway, I was watching both their faces during the debate, Kerry was smirking during the entire event (that I got to see) and basically looked like a real *** to me. I saw Mr. Bush do the same however he did not make it near as obvious.

You're wrong about the flip flopping and you were wrong about who was doing the smirking.

Originally posted by jc Kyle:
i thought kerry did have a better debate, made better points. Bush seemed to over generalize what kerry was saying.. saying that Kerry switches sides on things.. while Kerry had to clarify what he meant. Bush kept repeating the same thing and sounded rather foolish.

Also, when Kerry spoke, Bush made faces, snickered, and rolled his eyes. When Bush spoke, Kerry looked at him intently, took notes, nodded when the President made points. I dunno, based off that, Bush seemed like a whiny baby while Kerry was standing up to what Bush had to say

This person watched the debate.

Originally posted by token sebring:
It bothers me that people twist what kerry says to say he flip flops...

It bothers the Bush Campaign that their opponent uses his brain and is able to assess a dynamic situation and adapt as well. So they coined flip-flopping because they knew their target demographic (who is generally less educated, to put it gently) could remember it.

Originally posted by Infernal:
He does flip-flop. He accuses the president of lying to the American people, yet he uses the same "excuse" Bush uses for his vote for military action -- the information they were given was bad.

Sen. Kerry did not, nor did the American people, recieve the same intelligence that Bush did.

Then he comes out and states that given the same information and circumstances, he would have made the same choices as Bush. But, wait, didn't he say Bush lied to the American people? Confusing, isn't it?

It is confusing when you quote phrases out of context, I agree.

He says he voted for the 87 billion before he voted against it, then, just last night, he said repeatedly that he would make sure the troops would have everything they needed and actually accused the president of under-funding them. When Bush challenged him on his negative vote for the 87 billion, Kerry said almost in the same breath both that he supported the troops in every way and that his vote was his way of protesting against the action ... that he voted for.

Kerry voted for the $87 bilion package when it included a way to actually raise the money (ie. repeal of the tax cuts for the ultra wealthy). When the bill was changed so that the tax cuts would remain, he voted against it.

He rips into Bush for not forming a strong enough alliance, but then in the same debate goes on to accuse him of mishandling North Korea by using the very unilateral approach he supposedly supports for Iraq and then moves on to explain how Bush should be dealing with them bilaterally.

No, wrong again. The talks with N. Korea are being pursued multilaterally at this time. Kerry suggested opening bilateral talks, which the Bush administration refuses to do. We are talking about bilateral talks, not unilateral invasion and occupation.

Personally, I think Bush made some good points during the debate, and Kerry did much better than I expected him to, but, sadly, I would begrudgingly declare Kerry the winner -- not because of his message, but because Bush did an absurdly poor job explaining himself clearly, and then to make matters worse he missed a half dozen opportunities to make Kerry look like the idiot he is.

Personally, I think Bush made no points during the debate. Since Bush was not swift enough to show how much of an idiot Kerry is, how smart must he be then?

But saying Kerry doesn't flip flop? Of course he does.

Admitting that you are wrong, and adapting to a dynamic situation are characteristics that a good leader should have.

Originally posted by maxcamaro:
kerry: I have had one consistant position on Iraq....blah blah

liar and he knows it

This is obviously a very well thought out and logically precise argument. You can tell by the use of blah blah.

Originally posted by L32Projekt:
Oh yeah, and Kerry's statement on "Don't confuse the War with the Warriors" was pure BS. What did he do after coming back from Vietnam? He slandered EVERY warrior over there by saying they were all committing war crimes. He confused his personal war against the war with the warriors. Arsehole...

Given that Kerry was a verteran from Vietnam, he was able to go to meetings where veterans got together. At some such meetings, he was told by other veterans stories of what they did in Vietnam. He then reported this to Congress and made it perfectly clear that was what he had been told by a number of vets, of their own admission.

Kerry's "don't confuse the war with the warriors" is right on the money. You can support the troops without supporting the war. They are not the same abstraction.

[Skapimp]

^ *clap clap* ^

[GrigoryRasputin]

Originally posted by Infernal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Actually there were - I suggest you read the legislation instead of just trusting what the RNC babbles about.

I've read the resolution. Have you? </font>[/QUOTE]Either bull****, or you need to work on your reading comprehension. Yes of course Ive read the legislation.

[GrigoryRasputin]

Originally posted by Infernal:

Why would he vote against funding the troops engaged in a war he voted for, even if he suddenly regretted his vote, and then go on to complain that they didn't have the supplies they needed to battle effectively? It's a flip flop, man. Plain and simple.

Again, he didnt do this either. More twisting of the truth. He voted for nearly identical legislation that required Iraq to pay us back - and did not make us shoulder the financial burden. The 87 billion dollars that passed was a blank check - he wanted to hold Iraq accoutable for their debt.

[memphis_raines]

Originally posted by 98goldbird:
If Kerry was President instead of Bush 4 years back, the roles would be flip-flopped and Kerry would be Bush in that debate and vice versa. What I mean is...

Kerry was quoted to going to war with Iraq. Kerry was quoted that we need to send in as many troops possible
Kerry was quoted that it doesn't matter how much money we spend

Then Kerry was quoted that it was a mistake after the fact (the war).

However, we would still have been in the same situation is Kerry was our President at the time. Probably worse with his "I'M A VIATNAM 4 PURPLE STAR STICK UP MY @$$ VET AND JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED!"

If you're not going to vote for Bush, vote for Nader. Cuz the ideal that, "oh, I'm going to vote for the lesser of the 2 evils is BULL$HIT!" Since when is this election a bipartisan election in which youre ONLY choices are Bush or Kerry. Give me a break :rolleyes:

Dude, you can't even spell VIETNAM. Hell, you'd be a perfect 3rd party candidate :D

[Nicklz]

John Kerry and other Democrats arguments are weak.

Take the economy for example. Before Bush took office the (listen democrats) THE ECONOMY WAS ALREADY DECLINING INTO A RECESION. Then 9-11 hit.

Bush's tax cut's are being blamed as to why the countries deficit is so high. It's those tax cut's that have stimulated the economy. It's nolt perfect but it is getting better. John Kerry on the other hand can only say "well I'd do it better" MY question HOW?

He agreed with Bush going to war, voted yes to go to war, that is a record of fact. And has had many diferent stances since then. I'm not even going there. But now he says he has a better plan for Iraq? MY question HOW?

What really bothers me is John Kerry seems to be saying whatever he thinks will get him elected. And I can't trust someone who is just telling me what I want to hear.
Again let's look at his view's on Iraq he said yes to war, but now, being A WAR there are casualties and fatalities, he has taken a stance (i think) that he didn't approve of the way Bush went to war. The UN just as they had the other times Iraq started breaking the rules had no balls to finish what they started. There were 30 some countries who fought with us in Iraq. Kerry says we support 90% of cost and man power. Well we do have the biggest and best military, and can afford to put more in. We also get our fair share of reconstruction money, which may not prove to equal out dollar for dollar, but what is the most important? Money or Freeing Iraq, and sticking around to make sure they don't fall on thier faces.

Another thing that just come to mind. What about all these liberals who said we were invading for their oil??? Now thats a stupid argument, our own citizens and ecspecially the UN and the rest of the world wouldn't stand for us to stay there occupy and take their oil.

Anyway I'll post more later I got to go.

[Linxs]

I know this is going to cause an uproar so lets try to keep it civil please. I am not a text book so feel free to point out the inaccurate information. My favorite part of this post is the tax information posted at the bottom.

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian
terrorists-good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...

Ahh, it's so confusing!

Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average
tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day".
This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the
government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the
earliest it has been since 1991. Its latest day ever was May 2nd,
which occurred in 2000. Notice anything special about those dates?
Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are
actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave
no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are
wealthy men.
Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas.

Kerry owns 4 mansions,
all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is
an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average
A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year;
Kerry paid $90,000. Does that
sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured
out a way to avoid paying his own.

[ October 03, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Linxs ]

[BLLDOGG]

Patrick, you are the man [img]graemlins/rock.gif[/img]

[maxcamaro]

Originally posted by Linxs:
I know this is going to cause an uproar so lets try to keep it civil please. I am not a text book so feel free to point out the inaccurate information. My favorite part of this post is the tax information posted at the bottom.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian
terrorists-good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...

Ahh, it's so confusing!

Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average
tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day".
This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the
government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the
earliest it has been since 1991. Its latest day ever was May 2nd,
which occurred in 2000. Notice anything special about those dates?
Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are
actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave
no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are
wealthy men.
Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas.

Kerry owns 4 mansions,
all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is
an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average
A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year;
Kerry paid $90,000. Does that
sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured
out a way to avoid paying his own.

</font>[/QUOTE]nice list

[BLLDOGG]

the only thing i think is shady is the taxes part. kerry really isnt rich, its his wife. so that might play into it and there is no telling what those taxes are for. one might be property and one might me income. theres no telling unless you supply links

[Skapimp]

Also, just to let you know, most smart rich people find ways to pay less taxes than your average joe... many loopholes

[GrigoryRasputin]

Actually, I dont think a single one of those are true - sorry.

[Skapimp]

Yeah, I have no proof, nor any examples, but rich people find many loopholes and don't pay the taxes they should.
... but then again, they're taxed far too heavily now.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/men...xes.guest.html

explain to me how that's fair:

top 10% of wage earners pay 65% of all taxes?

[3.4 slow to go]

Originally posted by Skapimp:
Yeah, I have no proof, nor any examples, but rich people find many loopholes and don't pay the taxes they should.
... but then again, they're taxed far too heavily now.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/men...xes.guest.html

explain to me how that's fair:

top 10% of wage earners pay 65% of all taxes?

Ya know, when ever I've used that Limbaugh link, sooo many people would cry [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] , I wonder how many people will do the same now you have used it. [img]graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]

And again, for those who've said that the United States went into Iraq alone, still, are beyond ignorant, they're just plain stupid.

[Skapimp]

They went in with another major power... there are still 5 major powers against it... so over all, we went as the minority.

And if you'd rather me use another source, I can... it's not hard to get that information.