Israel don't play

[96RS Alex]

Re: Israel don't play

I was watching several news opinions about the turmoil...Giving up Gaza actually makes sense in the long run and was a brilliant defensive strategy, when you think about it. It gathers all the terrorists together in a compact little place, which makes eliminating them somewhat easier and cleaner. That 500 pound bomb Israel dropped yesterday is just the beginning and something you wouldn't have seen before they moved into Gaza. Expect to see some major crater-making lol!

Israel has apparently hit more than 100 targets. GOOD FOR THEM!!! They need to keep these terrorists so busy that they don't have time to send these bombers into Israel to kill innocent people. If they want to die, Israel is simply helping them to do just that without having to go to all the trouble of building a bomb and cross the border. As far as I am concerned, those terrorists deserve anything Israel can throw at them. It is difficult to build bombs when you have your head down hahaha!

Iran best watch out or Israel will clean their clock (again). Just watch and see who jumps into this fight against Israel. Those who do will be the very ones who have been propagating this terrorism worldwide for many years. Until these murderers realize that there are consequences to their actions, they will keep doing what they want. Well, ISRAEL JUST INTRODUCED THEM TO CONSEQUENCES!!!!

Bet your a$$ fuel is gonna skyrocket tomorrow....fill up tonight!

[Fireball27]

Re: Israel don't play

About the isolationism thing: Its not really practical in the theoretical sense. However it would be very easy, as mogobs said to slowly slip from the limelight, WITHOUT hurting the economy and standard of living.

Want historical precedent? Europe. They, once upon a time, were THE powers on earth. Now? Merely spectators (for the most part, no need to point out that some of them have troops in iraq as well..).

It is PERFECTLY possible to live comfortably and not be fighting wars in everyone elses backyards, other countries have been doing it for centuries. I am totally with Mogobs on this :wavey:

[Camaro Dom]

Re: Israel don't play

ok, mogobs must have never taken econ 101. fact of the matter is, yes, the world DOES revolve around money. its called our economy. and without our economy we are nothing. we need world trade to maintain this nice standard of living we all like. this isnt like any time historically. we can ship goods anywhere in the world for a fraction of the price it used to cost, in a fraction of the time and we dont have to worry about things getting priated or sunk.

we're trying our best with fuel cells and all that junk. chevy has a BUNCH of cars that run on E85 but that doesnt really do any good cuz it costs $4 a barrel as opposed to $3 for regular unleaded. DONT get me wrong tho. i do think that we get involved in more than we should. (somalia anyone?) the thing in Iraq wasnt all about oil. everyone stop saying that. think: if we can get Iraq up and squared away as an ally, then we've got two decent size nations in the middle east. we wouldnt have to look after israel so much, and the way i see it, iraq could become a mild economic power once they get their $hit straight so its for more interests than oil. people that dont know anything about the situation say that. and we cant just pull out of iraq either now. it'd totally undo what we spent so many lives and so much money to do. the gov't would likely collapse cuz people would be making power-plays on the situation and they'd wind up w/ another dictator. it'd be just like the first gulf war when we didnt finish the job...
i say good for israel, its about time they did something! and of course they've won every war in history... they were created in the wake of WWII and we've been behind them since the start!
as far as WWIII... yeah, as much as i hate to say it, i think we've got some troubled times ahead of us.

[DanT]

Re: Israel don't play

Of all the countries in that region, Israel has proven to be the most responsible one of the bunch. Not that I always agree with their tactics, but I don't trust them to do something stupid. America has been fighting terrorism with one hand tied behind it's back for a long time. Always trying to accomodate the Arab nations. Well, Israel won't have that kind of burden when they counter any terrorist acts. The operational guidelines they will follow will have none of the shackles in which our own troops must deal with.

Is this all "scary"? You bet it is. However, as Americans we have been fighting terrorism in the middle east with a limited knowledge of how that culture thinks. Some of their moves and motives just can't be foreseen by our frame of mind. The cultural gap is just too huge. Israel, however, will have a much better understanding on who these people are and what they will do in a fight. And, their influence on Arab nations will be much greater and better respected. If Israel can thwart some of the growth of cowardice terrorism, they have a better chance of promoting anti-terrorism measures in bordering countries than any US action could do, just by the fact we are seen as invaders on Middle-Eastern soil. No matter what, there will always be a certain barrier to our actions when seen through Middle-Eastern eyes in Middle-Eastern lands.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Israel don't play

ok, mogobs must have never taken econ 101. fact of the matter is, yes, the world DOES revolve around money. its called our economy. and without our economy we are nothing. we need world trade to maintain this nice standard of living we all like. this isnt like any time historically. we can ship goods anywhere in the world for a fraction of the price it used to cost, in a fraction of the time and we dont have to worry about things getting priated or sunk.

we're trying our best with fuel cells and all that junk. chevy has a BUNCH of cars that run on E85 but that doesnt really do any good cuz it costs $4 a barrel as opposed to $3 for regular unleaded. DONT get me wrong tho. i do think that we get involved in more than we should. (somalia anyone?) the thing in Iraq wasnt all about oil. everyone stop saying that. think: if we can get Iraq up and squared away as an ally, then we've got two decent size nations in the middle east. we wouldnt have to look after israel so much, and the way i see it, iraq could become a mild economic power once they get their $hit straight so its for more interests than oil. people that dont know anything about the situation say that. and we cant just pull out of iraq either now. it'd totally undo what we spent so many lives and so much money to do. the gov't would likely collapse cuz people would be making power-plays on the situation and they'd wind up w/ another dictator. it'd be just like the first gulf war when we didnt finish the job...
i say good for israel, its about time they did something! and of course they've won every war in history... they were created in the wake of WWII and we've been behind them since the start!
as far as WWIII... yeah, as much as i hate to say it, i think we've got some troubled times ahead of us.

Again, here are more comments and opinions from someone who hasn't seen more than 5 feet in front of them. We DO NOT need a global economic presense. DO NOT. We can easily sell these products and services to ourselves, but we don't. WHY? Because of greed. In all honesty, does any one person (or group of people for that matter) NEED 42 BILLION dollars to their disposal? The answer is NO!!! As I have said, the rich get richer, the poor get more poor and desperate. Do I sound a little socialist? Yes. Do I care? Not one bit. Simple fact of the matter is that PURE capitalism = pure greed. Dog eat dog. Survival of the fittest. You talk about this nice standard of living, and I am not sure if the homeless and jobless agree with you. Our standard of living can be maintained with isolationism, and everyone could be working.

without our economy we are nothing

Im simply ashamed to be in the same country as you. Its people with ideas like that that will always f*** the little guy out of everything he has worked his life for. You should run Enron, or maybe you did..... But in all honesty, is this what our country has become? Our economy? Is that what is overall important? What about the idea of being free? What about being able to express ones self the way they see fit? What happened to the idea of being able to raise a family the way ones self wants? Are those ideas dead? With comments like that above, I think liberty, independence, and freedom are nothing more than myth. And its people like you that have killed those ideas, but killed them in a way that no one with half a brain can tell. Simply put, it has always been up to us to look out for each other, but with a "global economy" the rich look out for each other, and leave the poor in the cold, starving.

As for Iraq not being about oil....are you kidding? What reason do we have to be in the middle east if it isn't about money and oil? Power? Allies? Are you kidding? What else is Iraq good for? Stuffing sand in a paper bag and exporting it??? The whole reason why the 9/11 attacks went down was SOLELY because of our presense in the middle east, and their affairs. Why do you think Osama wanted to attack us? BECAUSE WE SHOWED HIM UP!!! Thats why. The Saudi Royal family would have rather used the United States to get rid of their problems in the north than to use Osama's Militia, which was a slap in the face to Osama. Whole thing is, we wouldn't NEED allies in the middle east if we just let those people deal with their own problems.....kinda sounds like isolationism to me.....I believe thats what I have been talking about the whole time. And what the hell are we watching Israel for? They started all this crap, let them end it. Too many times have we been putting ourselves on the line for the occupiers of the "holy land". F*** em. Personally, I hope the Palestinians get their land. It would end MOST of the tensions between the Islamic peoples and European/western nations. GIVE PALESTINE THAT DIRT THEY WANT!!! I am getting tired of hearing how the US is being used as Israel's crutch. CUT THEM OFF!!! You wanna take sides, then the US should honestly take the Palestinians side, you wanna see terrorism end, if we took their side, it would end at the drop of a F***ING HAT.

[V6Bob]

Re: Israel don't play

Mogobs30th -

Tell me what you would do about this.

The US imports about 5 biliion barrels of oil each year. At $70/barrel that's $350 billion a year we ship overseas.

If we don't import the oil our economy collapses.

How can we be isolationist and let the Middle East sink into war when war there would cause the price of oil to skyrocket? Again, our economy collapses. I'm not talking fewer luxuries for the rich, I'm talking 25% unemployment. A depression. People with no money to house or feed themselves.

You say our standard of living can be maintained with isolationism. How? We're totally dependent on imported oil to move our goods and ourselves and run our factories and heat our homes. We can't just decide to be isolationist and stop trading with the world. It may sounds nice to you, but right now, it's impossible.

"U.S. stocks slumped Thursday, with key indexes notching a second day of 1 percent declines as Middle East violence pushed oil to a record price..."

What do you suggest we do?

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Israel don't play

Mogobs30th -

Tell me what you would do about this.

The US imports about 5 biliion barrels of oil each year. At $70/barrel that's $350 billion a year we ship overseas.

If we don't import the oil our economy collapses.

How can we be isolationist and let the Middle East sink into war when war there would cause the price of oil to skyrocket? Again, our economy collapses. I'm not talking fewer luxuries for the rich, I'm talking 25% unemployment. A depression. People with no money to house or feed themselves.

You say our standard of living can be maintained with isolationism. How? We're totally dependent on imported oil to move our goods and ourselves and run our factories and heat our homes. We can't just decide to be isolationist and stop trading with the world. It may sounds nice to you, but right now, it's impossible.

"U.S. stocks slumped Thursday, with key indexes notching a second day of 1 percent declines as Middle East violence pushed oil to a record price..."

What do you suggest we do?

WE HAVE OIL!!! TONS OF IT!!!! You think all those pumps and wells in the Gulf of Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and all over the south are for decoration? You think those things are pumping honey and orange marmalade out of the ground? We CHOOSE to be dependent of foreign oil. Its a marketing tactic. As I said earlier, we, as well as the rest of the world, will simply use middle eastern oil and central american oil until their reserves and wells are dry, and once that happens, the American oil companies will corner the market. Its not a difficult concept to understand. This dependency on foreign oil you like to talk about is a CHOICE, by the refining companies and oil reserve companies of the US. Simply put, its cheaper to use their gas, because once it is all gone, the oil in the US can then be sold at a higher price.....sounds pretty greedy on behalf of the companies of America. If you are still having problems understanding this concept, I can explain better tonight.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Israel don't play

WE HAVE OIL!!! TONS OF IT!!!! You think all those pumps and wells in the Gulf of Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and all over the south are for decoration? You think those things are pumping honey and orange marmalade out of the ground? We CHOOSE to be dependent of foreign oil. Its a marketing tactic. As I said earlier, we, as well as the rest of the world, will simply use middle eastern oil and central american oil until their reserves and wells are dry, and once that happens, the American oil companies will corner the market. Its not a difficult concept to understand. This dependency on foreign oil you like to talk about is a CHOICE, by the refining companies and oil reserve companies of the US. Simply put, its cheaper to use their gas, because once it is all gone, the oil in the US can then be sold at a higher price.....sounds pretty greedy on behalf of the companies of America. If you are still having problems understanding this concept, I can explain better tonight.

You have some awesome points there. We could be like Japan and not get involve at anything.

[V6Bob]

Re: Israel don't play

WE HAVE OIL!!! TONS OF IT!!!! You think all those pumps and wells in the Gulf of Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and all over the south are for decoration? You think those things are pumping honey and orange marmalade out of the ground? We CHOOSE to be dependent of foreign oil. Its a marketing tactic.

This is flat wrong. Google "US oil reserves" for much info. Here's one site which shows the situation:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html

Note that we use almost 10 billion barrels every year.

If we could produce more oil, at $75 barrel, we would. Think the big boys like the billions of dollars they're losing in the stock market every day because the middle east problem is driving the price of oil up? Think we like shipping out 350 billion dollars a year, much of it to countries who hate us? Think the government likes the mess we're in due to high oil prices? Think all those guys wouldn't stop this if they could? Or that the oil guys rule the country? "Marketing tactic"? You gotta be kidding me.

In 1972 we imported 28% of our oil. Today we import 58%. What's more likely? That the conspiracy guys have manipulated things more, or that we have less oil? US production peaked in 1970 and has been heading down. Google "US oil production" for facts about that. Are the conspiracy guys lowering US production of $75/barrel oil? Once again, you gotta be kidding.

If you're going to believe some deep dark conspiracy is the problem, facts have little effect. So does discussion. But this is a real problem, not one due to some evil guys in a dark room.

What makes me upset is that, as long as people believe the problem is some evil businessmen that we just need to stop, we won't do the real things we have to do to fix it.

I'm done here, but I'll keep reading.

[loser]

Re: Israel don't play

WE HAVE OIL!!! TONS OF IT!!!! You think all those pumps and wells in the Gulf of Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and all over the south are for decoration? You think those things are pumping honey and orange marmalade out of the ground? We CHOOSE to be dependent of foreign oil. Its a marketing tactic. As I said earlier, we, as well as the rest of the world, will simply use middle eastern oil and central american oil until their reserves and wells are dry, and once that happens, the American oil companies will corner the market. Its not a difficult concept to understand. This dependency on foreign oil you like to talk about is a CHOICE, by the refining companies and oil reserve companies of the US. Simply put, its cheaper to use their gas, because once it is all gone, the oil in the US can then be sold at a higher price.....sounds pretty greedy on behalf of the companies of America. If you are still having problems understanding this concept, I can explain better tonight.

ok, your idea of the foreign oil MIGHT ( personally i dont think so ) be what's really going on. none of us know. as for being totally indendent, even over a 20 year span i dont think its possible. like you said, taiwan, china ect can make pretty much EVERYTHING so much cheaper than we can over here, i dont see the totally independent thing happening, ever.

v6bob, dont stop posting as long as we keep this peaceful it wont get out of hand/locked. like i said before, its nice to see how everyone views things.

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Israel don't play

This is flat wrong. Google "US oil reserves" for much info. Here's one site which shows the situation:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html

Note that we use almost 10 billion barrels every year.

If we could produce more oil, at $75 barrel, we would. Think the big boys like the billions of dollars they're losing in the stock market every day because the middle east problem is driving the price of oil up? Think we like shipping out 350 billion dollars a year, much of it to countries who hate us? Think the government likes the mess we're in due to high oil prices? Think all those guys wouldn't stop this if they could? Or that the oil guys rule the country? "Marketing tactic"? You gotta be kidding me.

In 1972 we imported 28% of our oil. Today we import 58%. What's more likely? That the conspiracy guys have manipulated things more, or that we have less oil? US production peaked in 1970 and has been heading down. Google "US oil production" for facts about that. Are the conspiracy guys lowering US production of $75/barrel oil? Once again, you gotta be kidding.

If you're going to believe some deep dark conspiracy is the problem, facts have little effect. So does discussion. But this is a real problem, not one due to some evil guys in a dark room.

What makes me upset is that, as long as people believe the problem is some evil businessmen that we just need to stop, we won't do the real things we have to do to fix it.

I'm done here, but I'll keep reading.

You have some very good points too Bob. But the problems we have is that we don't want to build anymore oil refinery. We haven't built one since 1968 I think. Everytime one is propose the environmentalist and 95% of the Democrats tend to block it. If one is to be built, it take about 20 years to do so. There's a lot of red tape and beauracracy on this.

There's plenty of places we could go to get oil from our states, esp. Alaska. We could be totally independant like Venezuela. Again, it's the politicians and environmentalist that's stopping it. We need to take out all this EPA regulation so we are not paying so much at the pump. Prs. Bush is already trying to act on this. But the Demo., environmentalist and the liberal media is making him look like a villian.

I was just watching the news the other day and it seems that Hydrogen is very possible to replace gasoline fuel. But that's way in the future. We just need to think now.

[loser]

Re: Israel don't play

If we could produce more oil, at $75 barrel, we would. Think the big boys like the billions of dollars they're losing in the stock market every day because the middle east problem is driving the price of oil up? Think we like shipping out 350 billion dollars a year, much of it to countries who hate us? Think the government likes the mess we're in due to high oil prices? Think all those guys wouldn't stop this if they could? Or that the oil guys rule the country? "Marketing tactic"? You gotta be kidding me.

In 1972 we imported 28% of our oil. Today we import 58%. What's more likely? That the conspiracy guys have manipulated things more, or that we have less oil? US production peaked in 1970 and has been heading down. Google "US oil production" for facts about that. Are the conspiracy guys lowering US production of $75/barrel oil? Once again, you gotta be kidding.

v6bob has ALOT of good points here, we cant just sit back and watch the middle east crumble, someone will come out stronger and perhaps do more acts of terrorism on the US, try to invade us, ect ect. we DONT have as much oil here in the US as the middle east has. but, if we keep working on alternative fuel's, maybe we have anough oil here to last ourselve's untill they come out with something else to burn. but even that's doubful in my mind.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Israel don't play

This is flat wrong. Google "US oil reserves" for much info. Here's one site which shows the situation:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html

Note that we use almost 10 billion barrels every year.

If we could produce more oil, at $75 barrel, we would. Think the big boys like the billions of dollars they're losing in the stock market every day because the middle east problem is driving the price of oil up? Think we like shipping out 350 billion dollars a year, much of it to countries who hate us? Think the government likes the mess we're in due to high oil prices? Think all those guys wouldn't stop this if they could? Or that the oil guys rule the country? "Marketing tactic"? You gotta be kidding me.

In 1972 we imported 28% of our oil. Today we import 58%. What's more likely? That the conspiracy guys have manipulated things more, or that we have less oil? US production peaked in 1970 and has been heading down. Google "US oil production" for facts about that. Are the conspiracy guys lowering US production of $75/barrel oil? Once again, you gotta be kidding.

If you're going to believe some deep dark conspiracy is the problem, facts have little effect. So does discussion. But this is a real problem, not one due to some evil guys in a dark room.

What makes me upset is that, as long as people believe the problem is some evil businessmen that we just need to stop, we won't do the real things we have to do to fix it.

I'm done here, but I'll keep reading.

Too bad those numbers are PROVEN reserves. I have a hard time believing that if we had the oil in reserve, we would publicly let the world know it. There is a lot more oil in the south that other countries don't know about. Why? Because letting everyone know would be disasterous. We keep those numbers hidden from prying eyes, till the right moment.

OH, and btw, those guys losing billions of dollars on the stock market, they don't exist. Oil companies have turned record profits in the last 2 years consecutively. And with those profits, shareholders are seeing record divideneds.

[Camaro Dom]

Re: Israel don't play

Again, here are more comments and opinions from someone who hasn't seen more than 5 feet in front of them. We DO NOT need a global economic presense. DO NOT. We can easily sell these products and services to ourselves, but we don't. WHY? Because of greed. In all honesty, does any one person (or group of people for that matter) NEED 42 BILLION dollars to their disposal? The answer is NO!!! As I have said, the rich get richer, the poor get more poor and desperate. Do I sound a little socialist? Yes. Do I care? Not one bit. Simple fact of the matter is that PURE capitalism = pure greed. Dog eat dog. Survival of the fittest. You talk about this nice standard of living, and I am not sure if the homeless and jobless agree with you. Our standard of living can be maintained with isolationism, and everyone could be working.



Im simply ashamed to be in the same country as you. Its people with ideas like that that will always f*** the little guy out of everything he has worked his life for. You should run Enron, or maybe you did..... But in all honesty, is this what our country has become? Our economy? Is that what is overall important? What about the idea of being free? What about being able to express ones self the way they see fit? What happened to the idea of being able to raise a family the way ones self wants? Are those ideas dead? With comments like that above, I think liberty, independence, and freedom are nothing more than myth. And its people like you that have killed those ideas, but killed them in a way that no one with half a brain can tell. Simply put, it has always been up to us to look out for each other, but with a "global economy" the rich look out for each other, and leave the poor in the cold, starving.

As for Iraq not being about oil....are you kidding? What reason do we have to be in the middle east if it isn't about money and oil? Power? Allies? Are you kidding? What else is Iraq good for? Stuffing sand in a paper bag and exporting it??? The whole reason why the 9/11 attacks went down was SOLELY because of our presense in the middle east, and their affairs. Why do you think Osama wanted to attack us? BECAUSE WE SHOWED HIM UP!!! Thats why. The Saudi Royal family would have rather used the United States to get rid of their problems in the north than to use Osama's Militia, which was a slap in the face to Osama. Whole thing is, we wouldn't NEED allies in the middle east if we just let those people deal with their own problems.....kinda sounds like isolationism to me.....I believe thats what I have been talking about the whole time. And what the hell are we watching Israel for? They started all this crap, let them end it. Too many times have we been putting ourselves on the line for the occupiers of the "holy land". F*** em. Personally, I hope the Palestinians get their land. It would end MOST of the tensions between the Islamic peoples and European/western nations. GIVE PALESTINE THAT DIRT THEY WANT!!! I am getting tired of hearing how the US is being used as Israel's crutch. CUT THEM OFF!!! You wanna take sides, then the US should honestly take the Palestinians side, you wanna see terrorism end, if we took their side, it would end at the drop of a F***ING HAT.

ok dude, a couple things.. first off, settle down, no sense in giving yourself a coronary over a discussion. 2. we enjoy a standard of living in this country that far surpasses almost every other around the world (i think hong kong had it better b4 they were given to china). we got that standard of living thru our economy. because we're such an economic powerhouse we can devote more time and money to developing technology to furthoer ourselves. dont say i dont care about the poor/homeless. i do. i'm not rich. nt by a long shot. but i understand that as Pres. Kennedy said so well "A rising tide floats all boats." ok, so bill gates is worth 42 billion dollars. big deal! he worked hard and he had a good idea and it payed off! its situations like that that give people an incentive to work hard. everyone dreams of creating something and running their own business. when people work hard everyone wins! you can make fun of bill gates all you want but the fact of the matter is you probably are whining about him on a PC using his invention! he got rich and at the same time improved the lives of millions of people by making computers simple and easy to use. he's giving alotta money away to charity too. Time magazine named him, his wife and Bono from U2 as people of the year 2005 and had and article on how they were going around the world and seeing what they could do to help out the less fortunate.
Look, what i'm trying to say here is that yes, capitalism does breed a class system. Communism and socialism sound good on paper but in reality they give little incentive to worker than anyone else because everyone gets paid the same. its like if me and you ran a race, and you ran hard and beat me and i walked. then the judge said "you're both winners!" it gives you no incentive to run and exert yourself. those who work hard (and sometimes get lucky) succeed. Those who fall victim to things like drugs or alcoholism or sometimes things out of thier control fail. No, you're right. its not fair. but its the best system we have given the way human nature is. look at it this way. we do have the poor and homeless. but so many countries have so much more per capita. Russia, China, India, all of Africa... again, a rising tide floats all boats. one last example: Henry Ford. became a millionaire but in the process he made transportation affordable for all people. dont knock our economy man. its the best in the world.