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  • So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

    What do you guys think? Sounds kinda good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    Ethanol / E85
    Just in case you've been living under a rock and aren't familiar with the term, E85 is 85 percent ethanol by volume and 15 percent unleaded gasoline. The unleaded gas portion aids cold weather starting. One thing I dig about E85 is that the ethanol portion is renewable. While the debate rages as to whether 100 percent ethanol delivers efficient energy (studies on corn-based ethanol production estimate there's 1.2-1.7 energy units gained for every 1 energy unit expended in the production of ethanol), no one's arguing about whether it's a renewable fuel or not. Big points in my scorecard over petroleum-based gasoline for that one. E85 is also a predominantly domestic, in contrast to gasoline derived from petroleum of the mostly imported variety.

    Another E85 benefit I can give a thumbs up is its high octane rating of 100-105. Personally, I'd like to see a dedicated E85 vehicle like the Europe-only, Saab BioPower turbo sedan. It takes full advantage of E85's higher octane rating to kick up the turbo boost pressure and get you another 50 hp vs. the stock turbo engine running on gasoline (91-94 octane). Current flex-fuel vehicles can adjust timing and fuel injection according to the amount of ethanol in the fuel, but they can't kick up the compression ratio. Saab's turbocharger can, in the sense it compresses more fuel and air into the combustion chamber.

    Ethanol / E85
    Compressed Natural Gas
    Biodiesel
    Electricity
    Straight Vegetable Oil
    Why is this important? Ethanol has a low BTU count compared to the other contestants. It only scores 75K BTU per gallon. Since ethanol's the major ingredient in an E85 blend, the well-documented increase in fuel consumption vs. regular unleaded should come as no surprise. Consumer Reports recently determined a Chevrolet Yukon flex-fuel vehicle achieved 14 mpg on regular unleaded gasoline and only 10 mpg on E85. While this is an extreme example, an increase in fuel consumption of 5-15 percent is typical according to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. E85's skeleton in the closet has been this fuel consumption penalty. As the driving public gets wind of that little wart, flex-fuel vehicles are going to need every tax incentive they can get to sit pretty in the public eye. Saab's BioPower models prove you can have you cake and eat it too - get higher performance while minimizing the fuel consumption penalty of E85 by kicking up the effective compression ration with higher turbo boost.

    I have to mention the land use debate involving ethanol: can we afford to dedicate enough arable land to raising corn, switchgrass, or whatever the ethanol will be produced from? The jury is still out on that one. Oh, yeah. One more thing. Ethanol's a trifle corrosive, so transport must be by truck not traditional pipeline.

    Cynics point to the paltry number of E85 fueling stations in the U.S. There are fewer than 1,000 nationwide with a heavy concentration of those in, big surprise, Midwestern corn-producing states. Minnesota, for example, has over 200 E85 stations with a quantum leap to 500 predicted by 2008.

    Check it out
    Predictably, none of these shortcomings have prevented the ethanol-plant-building gold rush that been going on in the U.S. We're looking at a total of 130 plants operating with an annual 4.6 billion gallon capacity by recent reckoning. Quite the pile-on I'd say.

    To sum up, ethanol/E85 is renewable, can be domestically produced, has higher octane than gasoline and burns cleaner plus (and this is a biggie) it can be used in existing gasoline vehicles with relatively minor alterations to the vehicle's fuel storage and delivery system.


    What do you think?
    On the downside, it's energy balance isn't great right now, although it will likely improve as time goes on, and it takes a lot of arable land to grow the plants (be they corn, switchgrass, or sources of cellulose) from which to distill the ethanol. Also in the negative column, ethanol can only be used in a limited way with diesel engines. So-called "E Diesel" is only 10 percent ethanol. Ethanol's high octane rating works against its cetane rating rendering it tricky to use in diesels. But E85's major handicap is higher fuel consumption in comparison to gasoline, diesel, and most of the other alternative fuels. Higher consumption means the price must be proportionately lower than competing fuels to make it worthwhile for the consumer opting for E85 in his or her tank. This means tax incentives must be applied to the equation. Of course, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Tax incentives granted in one area, means another area of the federal budget suffers - at least in the short run. Personally, I can't feel warm and fuzzy about E85, especially in light of the benefits of the other alternative fuels we have available.

    1998 Firebird . 1989 Firebird XS . 1986 Fiero GT

  • #2
    Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

    MT,
    Great read! Right now, I think E85 is a waste. It get worse gas mileage and it uses almost the exact same amout of energy to create (sans the amount of fuel needed for trucking/train).

    With that said, we need to do it anyway. This is a perfect case of "build it and they will come". If the market shifts to E85, corps will spend billions on making it easier, cheaper, more economical, etc. As in, yes, right now it is a waste, but with the infusion of corporate money and research, those down sides will disappear.

    The changes in fuel consumption is slight, so it is likely our best bet to move America in that direction. We currently pay farmers not to grow corn, so I really don't think land is an issue. If it becomes one, we can always invade Canada. ;-)
    Last edited by SpeedingFirebird; 10-26-2006, 01:35 PM. Reason: frickin Canandans


    http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/799659

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    • #3
      Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

      Originally posted by SpeedingFirebird
      MT,
      Great read! Right now, I think E85 is a waste. It get worse gas mileage and it uses almost the exact same amout of energy to create (sans the amount of fuel needed for trucking/train).

      With that said, we need to do it anyway. This is a perfect case of "build it and they will come". If the market shifts to E85, corps will spend billions on making it easier, cheaper, more economical, etc. As in, yes, right now it is a waste, but with the infusion of corporate money and research, those down sides will disappear.

      The changes in fuel consumption is slight, so it is likely our best bet to move America in that direction. We currently pay farmers not to grow corn, so I really don't think land is an issue. If it becomes one, we can always invade Cananda. ;-)
      Agreed. Although isn't cananda a card game?


      Originally posted by SSMOWS6
      i mean, you can always fly wes out there and since he's a tool sometimes, fashion him into a plow for the maro
      R.I.P. '07 Pats
      Still... 18-1 > 1 and done

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      • #4
        Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

        You guys are right, but I can't help notice that high octane rating. I would rather do high octane and lose some mileage.

        I'm sure once we get this going in the future we would find ways to make this more and more efficient, plentiful, and easy to make. It did took awhile to perfect gasoline and make it useable for vehicles.

        Brazil is doing this and I think Argentina too. Both countries are pretty much independant from foreign oil.

        1998 Firebird . 1989 Firebird XS . 1986 Fiero GT

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        • #5
          Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

          one minor thing being forgotten about ethanol.... you do not need virgin crops to make it...

          dairies and breweries can make it from waste dairy products and waste beer components. If some of the big breweries ever got onto this, they'd make a killing... they could reuse all of their waste products from the brewing process and use it to make additional profits... (make more beer and high octane, cheap race gas?! sounds like a win win...lol )

          this takes care of some of the distribution problems with ethanol. its currently only really available in the midwest, where farm lands are plentiful. but there are dairies and breweries all over the country that could produce other reserves of ethanol, so that not all of it would have to be brought in from the mid west.

          just something to think about... i personally love the idea of 100 octane for the cost of regular... even if i am getting a few less mpg....
          Phill<br /><br />95 camaro... need money for turbo project... <br />94 S10 Blazer - winter beater - infinity system to be installed soon<br /><br />\"The man who says it cant be done should not interrupt the man doing it...\"

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          • #6
            Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

            It takes full advantage of E85's higher octane rating to kick up the turbo boost pressure and get you another 50 hp vs. the stock turbo engine running on gasoline (91-94 octane). Current flex-fuel vehicles can adjust timing and fuel injection according to the amount of ethanol in the fuel, but they can't kick up the compression ratio. Saab's turbocharger can, in the sense it compresses more fuel and air into the combustion chamber.
            exactly with i picked up a methanol injection kit!

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            • #7
              Re: So Ethanol E85 the soon to be alternative fuel

              Originally posted by Mighty Thor
              You guys are right, but I can't help notice that high octane rating. I would rather do high octane and lose some mileage.

              I'm sure once we get this going in the future we would find ways to make this more and more efficient, plentiful, and easy to make. It did took awhile to perfect gasoline and make it useable for vehicles.

              Brazil is doing this and I think Argentina too. Both countries are pretty much independant from foreign oil.
              I think Thor is right, once people find more common uses for it (i.e. more cars using it), the technology to creat such a fuel will catch up, and should see the prices on the stuff coming down a little. Right now, the technology to create such a fuel is still relatively new compared to the refining of crude, keeping the price similar to crude oil, but once there is a way to cheaply mass produce E85, everyone will probably see a slight price drop.
              1995 Pontiac Firebird
              2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4

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