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I didn't say they were plausible I just said that to save their asses at this point...
The big three are doomed and any other large entity that falls prey to these bullish unions. They are pointless and useless.
In 10 years china will be the new number one and we'll be sliding back to a number 2 or 3 spot.
And when the wage of a UAW worker is lowered from $27 an hour to $19 an hour, who is going to buy all these cars they make? You think you can afford a house, car, feed yourself, wife, and kids, school them well, have a decent retirement and healthcare, on $19 an hour??
You know why China will be #1? Because their workers scrounge for a food, live in tiny huts, and WALK to their slave shops. They get almost NO healthcare, no benefits, no vacations. They work 12+ hour days, for weeks consecutively without a day off, and can barely clothe themselves. There are MANY people in China that live below the poverty line...just so an executive board can have an ungodly size houses, 17 cars each, and more money than what they can do with.
Lemme ask you something....Does ANYONE think for one second, that if GM started paying their union employee's even HALF of what they make now, the price of a car will drop??? If you do, you're just f'ing stupid. GM will never drop the price of the car, but will easily give their upper management a bigger raise. They may slow the inflation price of these new cars, but you will never see a drop in MSRP. So either way, GM in whole, both union and management, are screwed.
The BEST situation would be to cut the starting pay down to $15ish an hour, with a max out of $21 for unskilled laborers, and $29 for skilled labor (like toolmakers). Let them have the benefits, but possibly cut the pensions down a little, but offer more retirement options, with possibilities of actually having some money for retirement.
As for retirement in itself, mandatory 35 years service in for full retirement, with full healthcare, with maximums on the healthcare premiums.
Steve, I have to disagree with you. I really think that once a person retires, that they should have something after retirement, if at the very least healthcare. A person spends 35,40, or even 50 years somewhere, they have to have something to keep them living after they physically can't do the work anymore.
As for GM's problems, they aren't all union related. GM hasn't been doing well for a long time. Bland cars, not the most eco-friendly or gas saving, nor are they great on longevity in whole. I cannot place ALL the blame on the union, but they are also not completely innocent either. They do need to back off a little, let GM do what they do best, and weather this economy out.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
Lemme ask you something....Does ANYONE think for one second, that if GM started paying their union employee's even HALF of what they make now, the price of a car will drop?
Nope. I forget the details about this, but I posted it a while ago. GM's biggest problem according the article was the cost of retirees (union and non-union alike). The cost of their pensions adds significant overhead to their cars. The article continued to state that other companies will eventually have the same issue.
People are living longer and the pension system has to support them. As Wes said, you need to provide them decent health care too (which costs a ****load). This is a major problem that transcends GM. They are first to feel it this badly though.
OK. Bad to our regularly scheduled union thread.... :stp:
As for retirement in itself, mandatory 35 years service in for full retirement, with full healthcare, with maximums on the healthcare premiums.
Steve, I have to disagree with you. I really think that once a person retires, that they should have something after retirement, if at the very least healthcare. A person spends 35,40, or even 50 years somewhere, they have to have something to keep them living after they physically can't do the work anymore.
As for GM's problems, they aren't all union related. GM hasn't been doing well for a long time. Bland cars, not the most eco-friendly or gas saving, nor are they great on longevity in whole. I cannot place ALL the blame on the union, but they are also not completely innocent either. They do need to back off a little, let GM do what they do best, and weather this economy out.
first, let me say that no.. this is not all the unions fault. GM has issues, no question.
Now... with what I've quoted here... are you CRAZY to really think that because you work for someone 30+ years, they OWE you something???
You work, you save, you retire.
Just because union workers are counting on the UAW to cover there asses does not make it right. That's like me thinking that SS will actually be around for me when I need it. HA!! Fat chance. I still have to give the gov my money... but they say where it goes. This is wrong!!! I should have control of my.. read MY money. If I screw it up, my fault.
Same for union workers... I still think they are living beyond there means. again, my OPINION.
FirebirdV6.com/CamaroV6.com Administrator
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This was taken from a quote on MFBA.org. I find it extremely persuasive and informing pertaining to the management of a Chrysler plant.....enjoy!!!
Unless you work at one of the big three, don't believe everything you read in the slanted papers. The problems with the big three are Union AND MANAGEMENT, the unions have been trying to change for many years now and we have given up quite a bit. Currently, in negotiations the union has offered to accept 60-70 cents on the dollar and agree to a VEBA for retirement healthcare, concessions worth tens of BILLIONS to the company. We have given up on healthcare, given up profit sharing, given up work rules, downsized, we have half as many workers here at Chrysler as we did 5 years ago. Management continues to pay themselves exorbitant salaries, collect bonuses even when the big three are losing money as an awesome rate, and basically blames it all on us and wants us to give up more while they will not offer up anything or even any type of good faith promise to keep jobs here. That is critical with the VEBA thing since the workers don't want to give up their retirement healthcare and take the "bag" so to speak from the companies then have the companies up and close everything down leaving us with the "bag".
People need to wake up, this is one of the last industries left in this country. No matter what we take in wage cuts etc. there is currently no way to compete with what is going on in SE Asia. There is not only dollars per day wages, but no healthcare, no retirement, no OSHA safety to comply with, no EPA to regulate pollution, not even basic human rights in many of those factories. There's no way to compete with that and there's no way we should be letting them import stuff made in those conditions into our country. We should be demanding that China and other countries implement some sort of OSHA, EPA, minimum wage, and other basic human rights standards that every company that does business in this country has to comply with.
I am a UAW member electrical engineer at a Chrysler plant, degreed, and a registered P.E. in my state. I am by no means overpaid and/or lazy, in fact recently had job offers from Toyota in San Antonio and Bucyrus in Milwaukee, and both were better salary and benefits than I have here. Yes, there are certainly some issues with unions, and yes there are some parts of our contracts that are not overpaid/not competitive compared to what our competition pays. By and large though, rank and file workers at Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc. plants in this country all make within a few dollars an hour of our people. The big three are claiming a ridiculous $20 an hour gap that doesn't exist. That number is off a claimed ridiculous $60K a year that they say our healthcare and retirement costs them on top of our hourly wage. Funny, I can get health insurance for a fraction of that, not to mention our competitors have similar benefits packages as well! The problems with the big three go far deeper than the worker's wages - we are less than 10% of the cost of a new car. We have serious problems with management greed and incompetence as well that is never mentioned in the media. Here at Chrysler we have gone from 135,000 workers from to 65,000 workers in the last 5-10 years, yet we were making $5 billion a year in 1999 and continue to run red ink now. What we still have is an enormously bloated salaried payroll, incredible amounts of waste, and management salaries that make you want to cry. Over the last few years we have given up a ton - we have seen profit sharing disappear even in years we made a profit, I now have a $800 deductible and 50% copay on health insurance costing me thousands per year, the list goes on. Yet our managers continue to take up to 200% bonuses even in years we lose money - last year our CEO Tom Lasorda raked in over $10 million - about a $3 million salary, a $3-4 million bonus, and a $3 million payout for being removed from the Daimler board. Our new CEO Bob Nardelli raked in $210 million to get basically run out of Home Depot. Keep in mind if someone makes $50K a year average for 30 years they will make $1.5 million in a LIFETIME. We can run an entire engine plant for what we pay some of these people per year... When I started here in 1997 we had 1800 workers actually building engines and maintaining equipment that builds engines, around 400 salaried. Now we are down to 500 or so workers, still have 300 salaried. There is wall to wall managers in positions like "throughput champion" and "lean manufacturing coordinator" raking in several hundred thousand a year, while having no direct report employees. The days of us being fat and lazy are long gone - we have cut and cut and things have changed over the last ten years dramatically. No longer are there what people think of when you mention union workers - noone is sitting on their *** sleeping around here - most people here work pretty hard and just want a decent wage for a decent days work. Many of them are near retirement or recently retired after 30 plus years here and only want the benefits that were promised to them - healthcare in retirement and a pension that they have earned.
Another systemic problem here is mismanagement. We waste literally millions every day at every plant on miscues, bad or flat out corrupt deals with suppliers, you name it. We do things like pay $27,000 for $800 computers. **** we even pay like $3 each for blank DVDs. We have overbuilt 500,000 cars in inventory that costs us a fortune, that's like $10 billion in finished product inventory. All at managements direction. We don't have one manager here that works for Chrysler, they all work for themselves. They have scorecards with flawed metrics they are chasing like Harbour numbers, cost per unit, throughput %, first time through, etc. Problem is the easiest way to make a cost per unit target is to just crank out more units. Even if we haven't sold em. So they pile up. We make dubious quality decisions constantly as a result as well. It would cost money to stop producing when we have problems, or fix problems correctly - so we don't. Not one Toyota owner will tell you they bought a Toyota because they read in Forbes that Toyota has a better Harbour number than Chrysler.... It is all about quality. Everyone in the rank and file knows this, we want desperately to make a quality product and be proud of what we did at work today, but we can't. Our "leadership" is too busy in meetings and doing paperwork and collecting big money salaries and bonuses to make the hard decisions and start doing what is right. It is much easier to say "If we cut this many people or cut this much cost off of a part or cut the worker's benefits and salary by this much" we can save X dollars immediately. They forget about the long term cost of making a low quality product, cutting every corner because those numbers are harder to nail down. You would think it would be evident at this point as we lose more and more market share and we continue to lose customers, but it hasn't seemed to sink in. I could go on and on and on about the things I know about here on the inside and have seen us do but really feel too disgusted to type.
How can these people sleep at night standing at a press conference talking about how our workers need to give up more, while taking a 200% bonus for their stellar job running a company into the red??? Steve Miller the guy that recently killed Delphi took a $3 million dollar signing bonus just to walk in the door - then closed 26 plants and put thousands out of work.
Move the jobs overseas???? Sure why not - its not just inhumanly low wages, but we get to give them NO healthcare, NO retirement, NO OSHA safety rules at all, NO EPA we can pollute the hell out of the earth. How can any manufacturing company compete with that if we allow them to do it and freely import everything into this country.
People in this country should be OUTRAGED and standing behind people fighting to stay alive at what is one of our last remaining industries...
I guess as long as everyone can keep borrowing the American way of life signing big mortgages and car loans, using the plastic card for big screen TVs everything is A-OK. Until what is already starting to hit finishes off our financial market, housing market, and retail market and it starts actually affecting people in a profound way.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
That is how it was 20 or even 10 years ago here. It is not so anymore. Workers here at not as dumb as people portray them - for the last 10-20 years they have made changes, the union and management have tried to work together, we have tried to embrace lean manufacturing from Toyota and cut dead weight to try to survive. There are still some "slugs" sure, but it is now the exception to the rule. 99% of us realize we hafve to compete to have jobs at all in todays world, as someone posted. Many of us are loyal to the company and as I have said would love to see us do well. We love our products from the musclecar heyday to todays. I have owned over 75 Mopars in 20 years. We realize there will be cutbacks, layoffs, things we have to give up in order to compete. What is really heartbreaking today is that we see us continuing to do our part and we don't see virtually any change on the other side of the fence. We see continued overpaid salaries and bonuses even as we lose money, and we see continued waste and bungled execution in every level of our business. These more the cause of our lack of success than our wages and benefits, yet the whole thing is pinned on us by management and the media. There is no accountability by management at all - not only are they not fired and replaced, they are rewarded!
As we speak, my plant is building engines with oil pumps that leak oil... The aluminum casting has porosity, and we have found some that leak externally. We quarantined almost 10,000 or so engines as a result. First of all that is 10,000 engines we shouldn't have in inventory because we have overproduced. In lean manufacturing, you are supposed to run a pull system - we only build engines as our car plant needs them - almost no waste of inventory, and no screw ups like this where we now have to inspect and fix 10,000 engines... Even worse, once it was talked about how much it would cost to tear down and replace all those oil pumps, we realize it will be astronomically expensive so the backpedaling begins, and a corner cutting solution is put forth. Our management decided to merely brush some type of "wicking Locktite sealer" on the outside of the oil pump housing over the area that is porous and leaking on those 10,000 engines. Even better, I was told at a meeting the other day that all new stock coming in was certified, and was not porous, and/or was impregnated with epoxy to stop leaks. LIES - what we are doing as we speak is having non UAW workers from Product Action brush that Locktite onto incoming stock before it is brought to the line(since they know UAW workers would object), and continuing to build more potentially leaking engines. The capper - guess where that casting is made..... CHINA. How many customers do you think we will lose when their brand new $25,000 or more Charger or 300C leaks oil in their garage and they tell all their friends and family what POS it is???
I feel as though the UAW needs their concerns heard as well, and not just on the issues of retirement. I think there is more problems with the Big 3 than what is led to believe by the media. Hopefully, these problems can be solved quickly.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
From Wes' quote. "Management continues to pay themselves exorbitant salaries, collect bonuses "
If you think companies are mismanaged now. Pay less for management and see what incompetent boobs run the place. Talent costs money. Are they ALL talented and deserve millions, well no. But after seeing what Gestner did with IBM, it's easy to see that the right people do deserve those kinds of salaries. To just make a broad statement like that is FUD.
Just my opinion. And, no, I do not work in management. ;)
so i went to work today looking for the shipment i get everyday, i asked some one where it was and the guy said he only dropped off six boxes. six out of the 100-300 i get everyday. i don't think i am gonna get any tomorrow or the next day.it is great to kinda hang out all day and do nothing but i am paid on commission and guess what we aren't getting any parts to sell, guess i wont be able to afford any mods next month. and if it isn't taken care of soon i wont even be able to pay the house or any thing.
96 camaro auto base model<br />slp cai<br />pacesetter headers<br />flowmaster catback<br />35th anniversary ss wheels<br />richmond 3.73<br />98+ ss spoiler<br />hypertech 160 degree thermostat<br />transgo shift kit
So I hear the union has enough money to pay the workers for 6 months to picket....
Alright... to all the union people *****ing about money... WHAT THE **** ARE THEY PAYING IN UNION FEES? What entitiy out there can seriously pay the salaries of 75,000 people making the money automakers pay?
Assuming the average person makes $25 an hour(the average is probably higher). That means they pay each person $26,000 a year(btw thats about what I make in a year)
From Wes' quote. "Management continues to pay themselves exorbitant salaries, collect bonuses "
If you think companies are mismanaged now. Pay less for management and see what incompetent boobs run the place. Talent costs money. Are they ALL talented and deserve millions, well no. But after seeing what Gestner did with IBM, it's easy to see that the right people do deserve those kinds of salaries. To just make a broad statement like that is FUD.
Just my opinion. And, no, I do not work in management. ;)
How can you collect bonuses and give yourself raises when your company is turning a LOSS?? Im sorry, but I was under the impression that a bonus is something rewarded for doing good, and a pay raise was given when a person does an excellent job and deserves what they get paid. As for talent, that is rediculous. Any college educated person with a business degree can do management, and work themselves up the ladder into a board.
I also don't believe that any one persons talent should be worth more value than paying a person good enough as to not live in a constant struggle. That is the moral issue here. Its all about greed, all of it. How much money can one person actually use for the intent of living even a good life and how much some of these execs are getting is two VERY different numbers. Its sickening to know that there are people still getting rich off lowering the standards of the middle class, just because of their "talent".
One more thing, if you can find cheaper labor to do the work, why can't some of these companies find cheaper management to run the company? Does it take MORE so called talent to run the company than it does to actually operate it? And if that is the case, why are the Big 3 struggling the way they are? If the talent is worth the money, why can't they find a simple solution to the strike? Why can they not find easier ways to produce cars, and keep production costs to a minimum? I'll tell you why, because any moron with a business degree can run these companies, and the politics behind them. Hell, our own president had a C average in school, and he runs the largest pool of capitalism. Its not talent, its luck and a brief understanding of what is going on. Talent is BS.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
I am sure there are more problems with GM then just the employees...
Does a manager deserve a bonus if this 1/4 they lost $1 billion dollars? Yep damn sure they do, if the company was losing $5 billion dollars every quarter for the last 7 quarters.
So I hear the union has enough money to pay the workers for 6 months to picket....
Alright... to all the union people *****ing about money... WHAT THE **** ARE THEY PAYING IN UNION FEES? What entitiy out there can seriously pay the salaries of 75,000 people making the money automakers pay?
Assuming the average person makes $25 an hour(the average is probably higher). That means they pay each person $26,000 a year(btw thats about what I make in a year)
thats $1,950,000,000
God I wish there was a plant in Central FL
No union pays full wages during a strike, I think its something like 60% of that pay, and its certainly not an average of $25 an hour, more like $18 average, TOP OUT is around $27 after 28 years of service in most UAW locales. That figure is not nearly what will be paid out, probably not even half of that, but the UAW does have deep coffers for just these situations. As for union dues, the UAW takes out a weekly chunk, not large, to pool into there. They have the money for 6 months.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
thats insane. this is no good at all. not for the economy, not for GM... these bastards are helping kill the American economy. hell if GM goes under then wall street is gonna take quite a hit. i love GM, ill always drive Pontiac, so if GM did in the future go under, i would cry. these people need to suck it up...should have went to college. enough said.
No union pays full wages during a strike, I think its something like 60% of that pay, and its certainly not an average of $25 an hour, more like $18 average, TOP OUT is around $27 after 28 years of service in most UAW locales. That figure is not nearly what will be paid out, probably not even half of that, but the UAW does have deep coffers for just these situations. As for union dues, the UAW takes out a weekly chunk, not large, to pool into there. They have the money for 6 months.
whats this weekly chunk?
whats the leader of the UAW making? 6 figures? 7 figures?
How much did that building cost I keep seeing on the news?
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