who do you want for president

[stevethepirate]

Re: who do you want for president

they definitely didnt base it on christian principles. haha. they may have incorporated some... but you can hardly say that they were the base for this country!

[tkoforpresident]

Re: who do you want for president

no, actually they were.

[Shirl]

Re: who do you want for president

Well, regardless, we are ALL guaranteed of two things no matter what:
Death and Taxes.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: who do you want for president

yes there was freedom of religion, but not exactly seperation of church and state at that point in our nations history. The founding fathers expressively felt God to be the focal point of this great nation. The pledge of allegiance sates "one nation under god"... money has "in god we trust" ..... people must swear on the bible before testifying in court. This nation used to be founded upon christian principals, while still allowing freedom of religion. Nowadays people are wanting to change that.

As well it should be. You cannot pledge upon a country full of Jews, Muslims, Buddists, and whatever other religion upon a Christian bible. Its nonsense.

The founding fathers expressively felt God to be the focal point of this great nation.

That is false. Completely wrong. MANY of the founding fathers believe that religion and reason must coexist within the newly created government, and that neither one of the two hold superiority over the other. They did believe that God should be included within the government, BUT NOT when it overcomes natural reason in any case. Which brings me back to something that Timbo said....

Umm 1st this nation was founded on Christian values and there are several direct quotes from the Bible in the U.S. Consitution.. See John Adams Biography

You wish to talk about John Adams....ok....this is from a quote from John Adams himself.

The United States of America governments have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."


From what I understand of this quote, it is said by Adams himself that our government was founded on reason, not Christianity. Now that your arguement holds no water, I will move on to Shirl, which I have waited for this.

True, but again, OUR tax money is paying for that. There are times when it's necessary and there are times the US needs to keep their nose out of other countries. This country doesn't need to play heroe everytime there is a foreign problem. We should be taking care of the people that live here first and foremost

I agree with this to every extent possible. But you make yourself look like a hypocrite.

I'm sick and tired of almost half of my paycheck going to the lowlifes who don't want to work and "claim" it is because they are poor. I know there are poor people out there working for a living that "might" need it, but I can easily name a handful of people that I know of, off the top of my head, that have had children out of wedlock but won't get married so that they can get a chunk of money from the government every month. MY MONEY!!

Either you do want to help, or you don't. Make your mind up. Are there people that abuse the system, yes. I don't think we're ever going to get around it, but does it make up ALL of what the taxpayers money is going for, **** NO. And BTW, illegals and jailbirds usually CAN'T VOTE. And for a lady that has a house, three or four cars, a hobby you can pay for, you can seem somewhat gluttonous with your money. Ive never heard of you having to scrap money to feed yourself, or work two jobs just to cover the mortgage or rent, but thats what my mother did when she had me out of wedlock. She never recieved any government help.

And religion... I believe that the loss of faith in the schools, workplace, and society in general is what has destroyed this country, our morals, beliefs and kindness toward each other in the first place. How can anyone think it is ok to teach our children to be discourteous, to steal, to lie, and to destroy other people's property without remorse or recourse?

Easy answer. When you limit a person ability to earn money and feed themselves, they're going to steal and lie. And by not being able to get proper help from the government, thats exactly what they are going to do. How can I respect anyones property myself if they say they "want to help......but not with my tax money"? Faith has nothing to do with it, and it seems to be the veil you use to hide your distaste of American society.

I leave this post with this quote from Benjamin Franklin for you religious nuts. FYI, Ben Franklin was not a Christian....he was a Deist.

"That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service to God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal. And that God will certainly reward virtue and punish vice, either here or hereafter."

[tkoforpresident]

Re: who do you want for president

since you seem to be suggesting this nation was founded soley upon reason, let me clear things up for you.

Christianity = Reason

[Mogobs30th]

Re: who do you want for president

since you seem to be suggesting this nation was founded soley upon reason, let me clear things up for you.

Christianity = Reason

From Galileo Galilei...

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

This is what Christianity does, but thats for another post. Don't get me started on the religion, I can just archive some of the posts I wrote a few years ago.

[tkoforpresident]

Re: who do you want for president

From Galileo Galilei...

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

This is what Christianity does, but thats for another post. Don't get me started on the religion, I can just archive some of the posts I wrote a few years ago.

While its great that you appear to be well learned in these sorts of affairs, it is not relevant using Galileos thoughts considering he had nothing to do with America. Second, that quote only means that God has installed reasoning in humans, something he gave only to us and no other creature, it does not mean that instilling christian principals with government forgoes reason altogether.

but arguments over the internet seem pointless so i will leave it at this:

America was colonized by those seeking a place to worship God. The founding fathers realized (believed) that God had a plan for this nation and had helped them achieve independance, in honor of God they founded this nation on the cornerstone that God had and would continue to guide the nation. Not everyone believed this, obviously, but the fact that things turned out the way they did (including God into our government) leads me to believe most people believed that way. Just because we let other religions practice in America that does not mean they hold equal share in the government. That is a human right that was given. If Christians had butchered budhists and muslims as they entered the country than we would have been just as bad as any other nation who exterminated those simply because of different religious beliefs. This nation was founded upon christian principals and just because we let other religions and practices into our country does not mean we need to give them all equal share in the representation of our governent, it was after all a christian nation to begin with.

[stevethepirate]

Re: who do you want for president

tko- tell me... have you EVER considered the fact that there is something in this world other than religion?

[tkoforpresident]

Re: who do you want for president

religion gives man something that is necessary for life.... PURPOSE.

[Fbody3400]

Re: who do you want for president

tko- tell me... have you EVER considered the fact that there is something in this world other than religion?

Exactly.

I have a semi-kind of analogy for these arguments. The religious people are arguing from a single viewpoint, kind of like they are on the inside of a snow globe. Now the people arguing against religion, can understand how the religious people are seeing it as well as see many other viewpoints. So they are on the outside of the snow globe looking in.

The religious people only get to see it from one side. The non-religious people get to see both their viewpoints and the religious point of view.

[Fbody3400]

Re: who do you want for president

religion gives man something that is necessary for life.... PURPOSE.

Have you ever thought about how humans are animals? Why do other animals live? Well, its obvious from watching nature that other animals live to survive and reproduce. Now, if every other animal on the planet lives solely for those two purposes, why are we, since we're animals, any different?

[tkoforpresident]

Re: who do you want for president

Have you ever thought about how humans are animals? Why do other animals live? Well, its obvious from watching nature that other animals live to survive and reproduce. Now, if every other animal on the planet lives solely for those two purposes, why are we, since we're animals, any different?

think of it this way...

does a dog sit around all day contemplating his life? does a cat wonder how it came to be or why it exists? Does a hamster sit around thinking of how to better his life? No, thats because animals are different than human beings. We have the ability to reason and ask questions. I think that is quite obvious. Just look around you. We are the only species that writes, creates sports, malls, sky scrapers, religions, nations, so on and so forth. We are animals, but we are also animals with souls. We do live to survive, but that is an obvious instinct (don't you try not to die everyday?) also we don't necessarily produce. While a basic animal instinct is simply to procreate and do so by any means necessary humans often choose not to procreate.

Human beings have something special that no other creature has. We have souls, and therefore we require purpose. Why do you think religions help so many people? They give them a higher purpose in life. A belief that what they do here on earth has some weight on what will become of them after life.

Just think about that for a bit and be happy that your not a cute but ignorant guinea pig. We can enjoy life like no other creatures, but in turn we can suffer like no other.

[SpeedingFirebird]

Re: who do you want for president

think of it this way...

does a dog sit around all day contemplating his life? does a cat wonder how it came to be or why it exists? Does a hamster sit around thinking of how to better his life? No, thats because animals are different than human beings. We have the ability to reason and ask questions. I think that is quite obvious. Just look around you. We are the only species that writes, creates sports, malls, sky scrapers, religions, nations, so on and so forth. We are animals, but we are also animals with souls. We do live to survive, but that is an obvious instinct (don't you try not to die everyday?) also we don't necessarily produce. While a basic animal instinct is simply to procreate and do so by any means necessary humans often choose not to procreate.

Human beings have something special that no other creature has. We have souls, and therefore we require purpose. Why do you think religions help so many people?

For days I have been purposely ignoring this thread, but I cannot help myself here. This is an area I've studied.

Take your argument and view it a different way. BECAUSE humans have such a powerful mind, they think they need a better purpose. People want to believe there is so much more to life than just being an animal. In reality. that is all we are. Basic example, and I'm not trying to knock religion here, it's just an example. Many people believe in an afterlife. Why? Because our minds are so powerful, it is so tough to grasp that our time on earth is so short and so insignificant. People want (and sometimes need) to believe there is so much more to it.

Religion, for good or bad, does give humans a sense of purpose and meaning to their lives. The reality is we are just animals. That's it. We live to reproduce and keep our species going.

[SpeedingFirebird]

Re: who do you want for president

since you seem to be suggesting this nation was founded soley upon reason, let me clear things up for you.

Christianity = Reason

Actually, this is a contradiction. Religion asks its following to have blind faith. This contradicts reason and logic. Hence the "battle" between science and religion.

Once again, I'm astounded I am agreeing with Wes. I think I need to re-evaluate my life. :) Just Kidding Wes.

[Fbody3400]

Re: who do you want for president

think of it this way...

does a dog sit around all day contemplating his life? does a cat wonder how it came to be or why it exists? Does a hamster sit around thinking of how to better his life? No, thats because animals are different than human beings. We have the ability to reason and ask questions. I think that is quite obvious. Just look around you. We are the only species that writes, creates sports, malls, sky scrapers, religions, nations, so on and so forth. We are animals, but we are also animals with souls. We do live to survive, but that is an obvious instinct (don't you try not to die everyday?) also we don't necessarily produce. While a basic animal instinct is simply to procreate and do so by any means necessary humans often choose not to procreate.

Human beings have something special that no other creature has. We have souls, and therefore we require purpose. Why do you think religions help so many people? They give them a higher purpose in life. A belief that what they do here on earth has some weight on what will become of them after life.

Just think about that for a bit and be happy that your not a cute but ignorant guinea pig. We can enjoy life like no other creatures, but in turn we can suffer like no other.

Well, I guess this is where the argument becomes senseless. I do not believe that some god made us intelligent for a reason, and you do. Therefore you won't ever comprehend my responses from my viewpoint.

For days I have been purposely ignoring this thread, but I cannot help myself here. This is an area I've studied.

Take your argument and view it a different way. BECAUSE humans have such a powerful mind, they think they need a better purpose. People want to believe there is so much more to life than just being an animal. In reality. that is all we are. Basic example, and I'm not trying to knock religion here, it's just an example. Many people believe in an afterlife. Why? Because our minds are so powerful, it is so tough to grasp that our time on earth is so short and so insignificant. People want (and sometimes need) to believe there is so much more to it.

Religion, for good or bad, does give humans a sense of purpose and meaning to their lives. The reality is we are just animals. That's it. We live to reproduce and keep our species going.

:tup: