Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

[Gatt9]

Hi all.

I know this kind of thing comes up alot, but I'm hoping this time is a little different.

I'm trying to figure out what Mods I want to do beyond the basics, and what Mods are within my ability to do. My car is...

1998 3.8L Firebird
Stock gears/suspension(Non performance package)
Stock rims with 245/50/16 tires
Whisper Lid
Irridium NGK's
Taylor Spiro Pro 8mm wires

At the begining of March I have an appointment for a paint job, and the following will go on.

Pacesetter Headers with Jet coating
Magnasound 3"/3" hi-flow cat
Magnasound 2.5" catback
Alluminum Driveshaft from a Z-28 with 44k on it
WS9 Ram Air Hood
Ram Air airbox
180 degree thermostat
HPTuner tune
Also going to Seafoam it, and put in Royal Purple

From there, I'm kinda at a loss. I know my way around a car, and which end of the wrench goes on a bolt. But I'm no mechanic, most complicated thing I've done is a Waterpump on a 80's monte. My neighbor is a GM mechanic with 50 years in, so generally if I screw up too bad I go see him.

I see references to things like Port & Polish the throttle or heads, Cam, stroker kit, Rockers, and of course FI(Which is way out of my pricerange at the moment).

Any suggestions on what I can do from here? Obviously, suspension needs looked at and Bilstein shocks, torque arm, shock tower brace, and maybe sub-frame connector are already on my "To-do" list. But I'm kinda wondering what else I can do for the engine.

Also, is the general consensus on Ported MAF rings and the DIS-4 that they don't offer much in the way of gains?

Thanks any and all who take the time to look and respond!

[RadRacer]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

Ported MAF rings don't exist for our cars, because the MAF is incorporated in the throttle body. DIS-4 is in the grey area; some people claim to have nice results from it, while others claim to see nothing. As long as you keep your stock ignition set-up in good condition (quality plugs, quality wires, quality coils, checking for shorts every so-often, etc) you shouldn't have a problem with ignition.

Sounds like you have a decent set of mods lined up. Like you said, next thing I'd look at would be suspension and drivetrain. A nice set of gears and a posi will do wonders on even a stock car. If you don't know much engine wise, but still want to get more performance from it, here's what I would do: Buy a cam, port and polished heads, ported (atleast gasket matched) intake manifolds, valve springs, retainers, and then make some friends at your local speed shop. Once you get all those parts, and anything else you may want to do internally, then go see them and ask them for a price to put it all in. I say get it all at once, that way you don't have to pay over and over to have them tear down the motor for something. Plus, this way you know it's been done by a professional and have someone to complain to if things go wrong. Looks like you have HPTuners, or one of your friends do; get with the cam and all is installed and have them do a tune for ya :). After that, you'll easily have a mid-13's car; maybe even 12's if you go with a big enough cam and all.


There's one thing to keep in mind though: How are you going to be using the car? Will it be a daily driver, or a weekend warrior? Purely track, purely street, or a mixture of the two? Once we know how you want the car to perform, we can help you out a lot more.

[IwannaCamarosoBad]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

What about a Posi??

[UDLOSE98]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

lower control arms, panhard rod.

good set of tires.

thats a good start.

[Gatt9]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

Ported MAF rings don't exist for our cars, because the MAF is incorporated in the throttle body. Sounds like you have a decent set of mods lined up. Like you said, next thing I'd look at would be suspension. A nice set of gears and a posi will do wonders on even a stock car. If you don't know much engine wise, but still want to get more performance from it, here's what I would do: Buy a cam, port and polished heads, ported (atleast gasket matched) intake manifolds, valve springs, retainers, and then make some friends at your local speed shop. Once you get all those parts, and anything else you may want to do internally, then go see them and ask them for a price to put it all in. I say get it all at once, that way you don't have to pay over and over to have them tear down the motor for something. Plus, this way you know it's been done by a professional and have someone to complain to if things go wrong. Looks like you have HPTuners, or one of your friends do; get with the cam and all is installed and have them do a tune for ya :). After that, you'll easily have a mid-13's car; maybe even 12's if you go with a big enough cam and all.


There's one thing to keep in mind though: How are you going to be using the car? Will it be a daily driver, or a weekend warrior? Purely track, purely street, or a mixture of the two? Once we know how you want the car to perform, we can help you out a lot more.

Thanks for the response Rad!

At the moment, the car is a daily driver, but somewhere in the next few months I'll buy a beater and try to turn it into more of a showy car.

My goal is to get the best possible performance while maintaining streetability, something I can take out and impress with, but not going to be using for general use. I'm also looking to make sure that it has the balls to back up it's beauty! Don't want some smart *** in a Honda to pull up beside me and be able to smoke me.

I'm going to take it to the track a bit and see what it can do.

I actually do have a friend or two I can probably talk into giving me a hand with the more complicated stuff like Cams and such. Probably have to throw a few bucks his way, but since he just had his first kid, I'm sure he'll be willing to give me a hand for some cash. Expensive little buggers, kids, especially in diaper days.

What actually confuses me a bit is from reading here, I gather that if I'm looking at doing a Cam I should actually look at Rockers and consider my heads at the same time? From what I've been reading it looks like if I'm going deep enough into my engine to be working on the Cam there's other parts coming out that could be improved at the same time? Just not real sure what parts those might be, I understand what everything is and what it does, just not real sure where the deeper engine parts are at and if I'd be going close enough to consider looking at them?

[Gatt9]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

What about a Posi??

It's actually a good question, one that I'm having a hell of a time with. I had a idiot run a red light and hit me in the driver door a couple years back, and my door sticker is gone. Nothing in my glove box either. Bought the car used with 36k on it, and found the original window sticker.

Original window sticker notes only an upgrade to "Tires, 235/55R16 Touring". But I have no notation of what gears/diff is on it, and no sticker to double check.

Now here's where it gets wierd. Some things I've discovered on this car are not standard. I've always had 245/50/16 tires. The oil pan is plastic, not the cast iron part I've read comes on these cars. I can spin my tires *extremely* easily, sometimes just the right. On certain grade hills, when it's raining, the tires spin extremely easily on both sides. Just a little itty bit of gas and I lose both.

When it's raining and I moderate accelerate from a dead stop while turning, I lose the back end completely and I'll literally fish tail.

I have traction control on the car, but I can count on one hand how many times it's kicked in with fingers left over in the last 5 years. Which is really odd since I live in PA and we get a decent amount of snow.

So while I should have the 3.23 gears without LSD, I sometimes wonder if it really is, because there's just enough unusual about this car to make me wonder. But I can't figure out a way to look and see if it's a LSD on it or not without that bloody door code.

lower control arms, panhard rod.

good set of tires.

thats a good start.

So I sould look at the LCA and panhard? Or just bushings? Still trying to get a good understanding of the suspension through the stickies in that section of the forum.

Holding off on tires a bit yet, as I've got one of my rims chewed up and may replace them, or may do some junkyard searching to see if I can come up with a match. I've got good, but not great, tires on there at the moment but they'll be probably need changed this year no matter what.

[Smoke Panther]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

Just to clarify, these are your goals?

showy car.

I'm going to take it to the track a bit and see what it can do.

oh, and before the word "cam" even crosses your lips, you need to read and understand everything in these threads
http://forum.camarov6.com/showthread.php?t=46236
http://forum.camarov6.com/showthread.php?t=44248

[Gatt9]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

Just to clarify, these are your goals?

Yes, that's pretty much my goals. Looking to take it as far as I can without getting into the dedicated racing car area. Just looking for good gains, but still something I can take out and drive on the street to take out a date.

Probably going to consider taking it to some of the bigger car shows and display after I get a good bit of work into it.

oh, and before the word "cam" even crosses your lips, you need to read and understand everything in these threads
http://forum.camarov6.com/showthread.php?t=46236
http://forum.camarov6.com/showthread.php?t=44248

Thank you Smoke. I have read those, and the link to "How it works" that's somewhere in those stickies too. If I do decide to Cam, I will make absolutely sure I have that mechanic friend with me as I order parts and helping me do the work. I'm 100% sure I can strip the bolt-on parts listed there off without a problem, everything that needs it's position marked off? I'll make sure I have a professional there to take the lead. I understand what's going on there, but I'm not about to try and do it myself, I know that's stuff that requires experience to do.

I'm not about to take all this money and flush it by blowing the engine doing something I don't know how to do.

[Smoke Panther]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

well...show stuff is pretty easy: just buy a bunch of flashy, shiney $hit and you'll get all the stares you want at carshows or w/e.

Performance wise...you need to pick a direction you want to go. Do you want to stay NA? Go nitrous? Stay stock internals? Get a S/C? Turbo? All of the aforementioned can be done while retaining one's DDing ability, but all are radically different directions.

[Gatt9]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

well...show stuff is pretty easy: just buy a bunch of flashy, shiney $hit and you'll get all the stares you want at carshows or w/e.

Performance wise...you need to pick a direction you want to go. Do you want to stay NA? Go nitrous? Stay stock internals? Get a S/C? Turbo? All of the aforementioned can be done while retaining one's DDing ability, but all are radically different directions.

LOL at shiney's!

I'm thinking upgraded internals. I haven't looked into S/C or Turbo in depth because of the cost, I've seen some indications the Firebird does better with one over the other, but really haven't looked into it much to tell if it's true or if it was just some personal opinions. Down the road I could see myself doing FI though. I realize I'll probably have to revisit my Catback going FI, and I'll need to get into injectors and fuel pump. Right now though I'm more interested in looking at the internals, as at least some of those I can afford compared to the 8k going FI will probably cost me.

I'm really not looking to go Nitrous.

So if S/C is superior to TB or vice versa, that's the eventual direction I'd like to go, and what I'd prefer to work towards.

Thank you very much btw Smoke, for your time with my questions, it really is much appriciated.

Edit: Part of the reason I went with the 2.5" catback at the moment is because I seem to have some kinda curse with exhaust systems. I don't know what it is, or why it is, but I lose them constantly. My 82 firebird I lost it within a year, my 90 firebird I lost it inside of 3 months, and on the 98 I have now, I've lost the fool thing twice in 5 years. Both times to rusted hangers on a tip that dragged and took the muffler with it. Dunno what it is, but I have a catback curse.

[Smoke Panther]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

I'm thinking upgraded internals. I haven't looked into S/C or Turbo in depth because of the cost, I've seen some indications the Firebird does better with one over the other, but really haven't looked into it much to tell if it's true or if it was just some personal opinions. Down the road I could see myself doing FI though. I realize I'll probably have to revisit my Catback going FI, and I'll need to get into injectors and fuel pump. Right now though I'm more interested in looking at the internals, as at least some of those I can afford compared to the 8k going FI will probably cost me.

So if S/C is superior to TB or vice versa, that's the eventual direction I'd like to go, and what I'd prefer to work towards.

You need to make an executive decision, right now, if you want people to help you.

From that post, you've given yourself 3 options: NA, supercharged, or turbocharged. Wishy-washy stuff like this...

Right now though I'm more interested in looking at the internals, as at least some of those I can afford compared to the 8k going FI will probably cost me.

So if S/C is superior to TB or vice versa, that's the eventual direction I'd like to go, and what I'd prefer to work towards.

...does not answer my question of what direction you want to go. The first part says "I want build my car NA b/c I can't afford FI" then in the next section, "I want FI later on." Trying to do everything is just going to waste thousands of dollars and net a car that does nothing that you envisioned it doing.

So that brings me back to my original question: What direction do you want to go in? Don't give me a play-by-play of your reasoning, or what you see in your crystal ball as to exactly how everything's going to pan out. Just tell me which way you want to go, and I will tell you how to build your car.

Edit: Part of the reason I went with the 2.5" catback at the moment is because I seem to have some kinda curse with exhaust systems. I don't know what it is, or why it is, but I lose them constantly. My 82 firebird I lost it within a year, my 90 firebird I lost it inside of 3 months, and on the 98 I have now, I've lost the fool thing twice in 5 years. Both times to rusted hangers on a tip that dragged and took the muffler with it. Dunno what it is, but I have a catback curse.

Then go to a competant exhaust shop to have them set your catback up. No matter what, you're going to need a 3" catback if you are serious about having a fast car.

[RadRacer]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

Like Smoke said, it seems you're still in the gray about the direction you want to go. Let me say this; N/A build ups are completely different from S/C or Turbo build ups. If you build up for N/A, then decide to go FI, you'll basically have to rip off all your N/A parts and put on different FI parts. Ex: intake, and exhaust for N/A will have to be removed, or modified for a turbo set-up; N/A cam is not what you want if you go turbo or s/c; etc. Figure out which way you want to go, and then we'll help you. I'm doing N/A, just because it was what I could afford at the time. If you are set on doing a turbo or supercharger, then save you money for the mods that will be associated with that set-up. A nice N/A build up can be fast especially with some N2O, and so can a turbo or s/c build-up. It just depends on how you want to build the car: do you want to put some work into it and try and get the most out of what you've got (N/A build)? Do you want to bolt on an immediate 50-60HP (s/c)? Do you want to go into the engine and beef it up to run a high psi turbo set-up and have one of the fastest V6's around (turbo)? It's up to you man.


Personally, I think a supercharger set-up will be what you want; something that'll get the car moving nicely, but not take a huge gash out of the pocket.

[Gatt9]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

You need to make an executive decision, right now, if you want people to help you.

From that post, you've given yourself 3 options: NA, supercharged, or turbocharged. Wishy-washy stuff like this...

...does not answer my question of what direction you want to go. The first part says "I want build my car NA b/c I can't afford FI" then in the next section, "I want FI later on." Trying to do everything is just going to waste thousands of dollars and net a car that does nothing that you envisioned it doing.

So that brings me back to my original question: What direction do you want to go in? Don't give me a play-by-play of your reasoning, or what you see in your crystal ball as to exactly how everything's going to pan out. Just tell me which way you want to go, and I will tell you how to build your car.

Apologies Smoke, Rad, I was thinking some things were complementary that must not be.

S/C, that's the direction I'd like to go. Did some researching and that seems like it's what I'm looking for.

[Smoke Panther]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

S/C, that's the direction I'd like to go.

Ok. First, you'll need the obligatory full exhaust of the 3" variety. Then, read and understand all of the information in this post

http://forum.camarov6.com/showthread.php?t=16617

There are several members here that have experience with Procharged/supercharged 3800...a few names that come off the top of my head are DMW319 and Pathogen...make friends with them, because they will be your best source.

[TheGr8Schlotzky]

Re: Need a hand coming up with a plan for further mods.

As far as a little bit of suspension to help you get the power to the ground, a good set of Moog bushings are a great upgrade for the stock LCAs. Moog in the stock LCAs is arguably better than several of the aftermarket LCAs on the market, and certainly cheaper. As far as shocks, while searching will pretty much leave you with one option: bilstien, I would stay away from bilstein. They were indeed a great brand in years past, but since they had a shipment of crappy shocks, the suspension guys like sam strano have lost some respect for the name. Strano is currently not recommending bilstiens to anyone, and suggesting Tokicos instead for a car at stock height. If your going to lower it, KYB AGX would be the way to go, unless you have the money for some Konis.