Socialism at Work!

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Businesses do not have an obligation to provide healthcare to its employees... if they don't provide healthcare, people would be less likely to work for them than competing companies, and they would suffer from that

Businesses do not have an obligation to provide retirement for the same reasons

It is possible to invest in your own retirement... IRAs, mutual funds, bonds etc. ...Capitalism

It is also possible to provide your own healthcare... as I said earlier, I believe, there are over 1500 health insurance providers in this country... all with various rates of coverage and premiums... a lower income family might have to make some sacrifices in order to afford this, but don't tell me it's not possible... the problem is that too many lower class choose to live a middle class lifestyle and expect to have the gov't take care of them... not all but that's where the notion that they can't afford it comes from...

What was wrong with what Bush proposed with the health-savings accounts? Tax-free accounts that act as a lifeline for small medical needs such as doctor's visits and prescriptions, and a low-premium/high deductible insurance coverage for major medical needs such as chronic illnesses, surgeries etc. That way people pay for their own health-care instead of me paying for everyone else's

[flamingchicken]

Re: Socialism at Work!

And we couldn't remain both because of our economic status due to capitalism. We were dragged into everything because we were a world power, all due to capitalism.

Still failing.....

you sir need to learn to attack beliefs, instead of a direct attack on a person.

what makes you think you are better than anyone? hmm???

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

you sir need to learn to attack beliefs, instead of a direct attack on a person.

what makes you think you are better than anyone? hmm???

lol... agreed... I've never been called a racist until Obama was elected... and nothing's changed with me, but some people can't stand the fact that I'm right, so instead of debating facts with me, they just denounce my views, saying that the only reason I feel this way is bc Obama's black...

^^^not what you did mogobs, but it's the same tactic

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Bedtime for me... we'll pick this up again tomorrow... I think I'm going to book a trip to DC and bring lots of Trans-x with me...

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

you sir need to learn to attack beliefs, instead of a direct attack on a person.

what makes you think you are better than anyone? hmm???

Im better than him because I have taken the time out of my day to do some fact checking. There is a difference between venom and T-Mill. T-Mill has taken the time to understand his facts, while venom has not. If you choose to have an intellectual debate, know what the hell you are talking about. T-Mill has made interesting points, while venom has confused the hell out of me with here say and unproven points of view.

Now to get to T-Mills point of view and some of HIS unproven facts....

If you don't have an argument, don't resort to criticizing the person you're arguing with... I've been working since I was 15... I do NOT come from a rich family... my parents each make less than 35k a year and the company my dad worked for for 34 years just went under... The only reason I know anything about cars is out of necessity bc my first car was an 89 Cavalier that broke down twice a week, and we couldn't afford to pay to have it fixed... I may be only 23, but I've worked constantly for 8 years now, for the first 3 years of college I held 3 jobs and worked over 50 hours a week... I'm NOT spoiled and I don't understand why you would have to say that to try and make a point... it reminds me of the whole "Joe the plumber" Dems couldn't rebuke what he had to say so they just resorted to defaming him and ridiculing him to try and discredit him...

I'm not offended, bc you don't know anything about me, but after all of the hard work I've done, and all the hard work my parents had to do while raising me... it's dissappointing for me to hear someone say that... just to make a point in an argument... lol

My apologies, but you also have to look at my point of view as well. You say you struggled, and Im laughing at such a remark especially since you laid it all out for everyone to see. You've lived a far better life than I have, as your parents compared to mine. But this isn't about who's **** is bigger....so I'll move on.

the US already has the BEST healthcare system in the world... just look at the countries who have adopted state-run healthcare... not ideal systems...

but some people can't stand the fact that I'm right, so instead of debating facts with me, they just denounce my views,

REALLY?? I hope you have done your factchecking with everything else you have said, because this is going to hurt. I shall now point you to the World Health Organization's rankings of world health care systems, as seen by this link...
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Well, lookie there, I don't see the US up top. I don't even see the US in the top 10, or top 25. We're 37th. We were slated as 37th because of our inability to provide equal health care options for all members of our country. Care to explain why I am being badgered about what Im saying when I continue to prove you wrong? Please don't sit there and tell me you are right when you CLEARLY have made a mistake. Remember Im denouncing your facts, because they are WRONG.

What was wrong with what Bush proposed with the health-savings accounts? Tax-free accounts that act as a lifeline for small medical needs such as doctor's visits and prescriptions, and a low-premium/high deductible insurance coverage for major medical needs such as chronic illnesses, surgeries etc. That way people pay for their own health-care instead of me paying for everyone else's

Ok....here we go again.
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/archives/...savings_2.html
Ive been fair by posting this link to show both the pro's and con's of having such an account. One thing you stated was HIGH DEDUCTIBLE. If you need something done that costs some $2000 as a family deductible, and you don't have $2000 (partially because you're just trying to feed yourself with what little pay you have) you're screwed. Not my idea of fair to me, especially when I still believe healthcare should be universally offered.

a lower income family might have to make some sacrifices in order to afford this

What sacrifices would they have to make in order to afford such healthcare? Lets say this time you're not a family, you have only yourself. You live in an apartment that costs you $700 a month, electricity, food, other necessities, comes to a total of about $1000 a month. What if you only bring in $1050 a month net pay? This is a COMMON scenario, seen everyday from the working poor. And you do the math, and a 40 hr week comes to more than what minimum wage is. So how again do you afford this healthcare? What sacrifices are you going to have to make for it? What day are you not going to eat at all, what bill is going to be unpaid? Think about it.

the problem is that too many lower class choose to live a middle class lifestyle and expect to have the gov't take care of them... not all but that's where the notion that they can't afford it comes from...

You couldn't be anymore wrong. MUCH of the honest lower class people live like lower class people, going to work everyday, paying their bills, eating at shelters. Ive seen it where I live, and Ive seen it where Ive come from. These are usually not the same people who exploit welfare programs, or live a life that they can't afford. The lower class tends to be much more frugal with what they have, which is totally different than what your falsehood may suggest.

Im not saying you are completely wrong with your opinion T-Mill, but I would appreciate you doing some factchecking as well before you sit there and tell me what tactic Im using. I have openly proved your facts wrong, so don't tell me Im hitting with low blows here....

[vanbibber]

Re: Socialism at Work!

wes they need to get back to work lol. you have to much time on your hands now.

[tkoforpresident]

Re: Socialism at Work!

all i can say is i'm glad to see this site has some intellectual members who aren't blinded by what our current administration is doing.


I'm proud of all of you who are standing up for principles laid down by our founding fathers when we started this great nation.

and obama wants to go over to europe and all around the world and apologize for the U.S. being superior to every country for the last two centuries.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

all i can say is i'm glad to see this site has some intellectual members who aren't blinded by what our current administration is doing.


I'm proud of all of you who are standing up for principles laid down by our founding fathers when we started this great nation.

and obama wants to go over to europe and all around the world and apologize for the U.S. being superior to every country for the last two centuries.

Bout time you learned not to argue with me.:rolleyes:

[tkoforpresident]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Bout time you learned not to argue with me.:rolleyes:

arguing with YOU is a moot point because you are an ignorant liberal.

but don't worry, your in the majority. ;)

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

arguing with YOU is a moot point because you are an ignorant liberal.

but don't worry, your in the majority. ;)

Ignorant maybe, but definitely smart enough to keep you from talking much on TWO boards now. You were of no match, and time and time again I have proven myself and my sound opinions without a peep from you. You can't argue your point effectively either.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Yeah....didn't think you had anything else to say Max.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

ugh... can't sleep... gotta be up in an hour anyway so...

I never said I've struggled I was a very happy child, all I've said is that I have by far not been spoiled, not from anyone's perspective... spoiled would mean that I've somehow been given something I don't deserve or haven't earned... just because I haven't suffered like you or others have doesn't make me spoiled... and trust me that is by far not the case, and regardless, there would be no way for you to determine that... that's the point I was trying to make with that...

I'm not saying that it's a reality that lower class people do this... I didn't word that very well... I'm saying that it's a stereotype that people do that... that's where that notion comes from...

And as far as someone bringing in 1050 and already having $1000 in expenses... First off 1050 a month is minimum wage full time... I started out at Walgreen's when I was 16 making that... after two years of being a good employee who worked my *** off everyday... I was given raises and left making much more... if I had decided not to go to College, I could have stayed, and with no prior skills, or college, after 5 years I could have been making around $12 an hour... which is around 1500 a month... and that's assuming I didn't get any kind of promotion... I also would have been offered health insurance, and stock options... This is with no experience... or advanced education... My point is... if you're willing to work for it, these things are there for people... and don't accuse me of over-generalizing, bc I'm simply providing an example... but people who are willing to do the work will reap the rewards... and like I think I've said... healthcare is in need of reform, but a universal state-run option will only work to create a greater deficit and worse-case... rationing of health care...

and when I said that we have the best health care in the world I was referring to the total package... doctors, hospitals, technology, education... many of those countries send students to the US to become a doctor, that means more to me than a WHO stat sheet from 9 years ago...

Plus the info that the WHO uses doesn't take social factors into perspective... such as different ethnicities are succeptible to different health factors... the American's poor diet... the American's poor fitness habits... Drug use... alcohol abuse... there are many factors that are area specific that twist the statistics when it comes to healthcare... for example... the lowest ranked countries are the sub-saharan African countries... this is due more to the HIV-AIDS problem, which has lowered the life expectancy in those countries to 40 yrs or less... not due to a poor health care system (which those same countries are so poor that I'm sure they'd rank poorly anyway)

Another problem with your WHO "facts" you presented is that two of the five criteria used to determine the rankings were based on opinion polls... how reliable can they possibly be since most people don't know anything different than their own country's healthcare system? Especially in the U.S. since we are so large, and this study was done in 2000 around the time of the "Canada prescription meds" craze...

Turns out that didn't hurt at all...

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

and I must say mogobs, this has been one of the best political debates I've had in a long time... most people I run into who voted for Obama don't know anything about politics... they just voted for him bc he's cool... lol

[tkoforpresident]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Yeah....didn't think you had anything else to say Max.

Man i really must have pissed you off



You have too much time on your hands, you really should get a job. :D

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

ugh... can't sleep... gotta be up in an hour anyway so...

I never said I've struggled I was a very happy child, all I've said is that I have by far not been spoiled, not from anyone's perspective... spoiled would mean that I've somehow been given something I don't deserve or haven't earned... just because I haven't suffered like you or others have doesn't make me spoiled... and trust me that is by far not the case, and regardless, there would be no way for you to determine that... that's the point I was trying to make with that...

I'm not saying that it's a reality that lower class people do this... I didn't word that very well... I'm saying that it's a stereotype that people do that... that's where that notion comes from...

And as far as someone bringing in 1050 and already having $1000 in expenses... First off 1050 a month is minimum wage full time... I started out at Walgreen's when I was 16 making that... after two years of being a good employee who worked my *** off everyday... I was given raises and left making much more... if I had decided not to go to College, I could have stayed, and with no prior skills, or college, after 5 years I could have been making around $12 an hour... which is around 1500 a month... and that's assuming I didn't get any kind of promotion... I also would have been offered health insurance, and stock options... This is with no experience... or advanced education... My point is... if you're willing to work for it, these things are there for people... and don't accuse me of over-generalizing, bc I'm simply providing an example... but people who are willing to do the work will reap the rewards... and like I think I've said... healthcare is in need of reform, but a universal state-run option will only work to create a greater deficit and worse-case... rationing of health care...

and when I said that we have the best health care in the world I was referring to the total package... doctors, hospitals, technology, education... many of those countries send students to the US to become a doctor, that means more to me than a WHO stat sheet from 9 years ago...

Plus the info that the WHO uses doesn't take social factors into perspective... such as different ethnicities are succeptible to different health factors... the American's poor diet... the American's poor fitness habits... Drug use... alcohol abuse... there are many factors that are area specific that twist the statistics when it comes to healthcare... for example... the lowest ranked countries are the sub-saharan African countries... this is due more to the HIV-AIDS problem, which has lowered the life expectancy in those countries to 40 yrs or less... not due to a poor health care system (which those same countries are so poor that I'm sure they'd rank poorly anyway)

Another problem with your WHO "facts" you presented is that two of the five criteria used to determine the rankings were based on opinion polls... how reliable can they possibly be since most people don't know anything different than their own country's healthcare system? Especially in the U.S. since we are so large, and this study was done in 2000 around the time of the "Canada prescription meds" craze...

Turns out that didn't hurt at all...

I was HOPING you would respond, Ive been sitting here since I seen you on with a grin on my face hoping you would have some rebuttle to the WHO stats. And you did, and its all meaningless yet again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/op...ewanted=1&_r=1
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

These are two more pages explaining the failure of the American health care system as it is. One is an opinion article from the NY Times explaining it, and the second is the statistical evidence explained from figures of 1991, which have only gotten worse since then. Although the statistical figures and the WHO reports are a little on the old side, I have yet to come up with recent comparisons between one countries health care system to another.

Its not because the health care itself is bad, THAT we do have the best in the world in. But even if the healthcare is good, not everyone has access to it, which makes the SYSTEM bad.

Tell you what, I want you to do something for me. You find me the cheapest quote you can find from one of the 1500 or so health insurance companies out there, one for someone at the age of 20, one for the age of 45, and one for the age of 65, and you link me the monthly or yearly quotes. I would like to see how affordable it is. And you can make these people as healthy as possible, just to take away from the fact that most people aren't that healthy in the first place. You let me know what those prices are.