Socialism at Work!

[Mighty Thor]

Re: Socialism at Work!

1. Im the taxpayer that has to pay for the healthcare of US citizens. I have no issues with that, because they are also tax payers as well. Liberating another country is stupid, especially when that country's citizens don't have anything to offer me or this citizens of this one.

I didn't want to get involve in this because this turning into an ugly epic debate. Sorry Wes, I couldn't disagree more. 80% of my family work for the healthcare industries. We all know it is out of control and becoming out of reach for the average person. To use tax payers money on this is suicide. Just last month, I think, Pres. Obama passed the Healthcare Act for Children and to pay for this he would tax the so called rich. We know that's not logical because this will not cover the whole cost. Plus, many who benefit from this have been illegal alien's children. If you come here to Calif. you'll see how many hospitals have been closed because of illegals not having insurance, not enough members because they are too expensive, and poor services.

2. How much is your rent? Like $100? I pay more for rent than the mortgage of your house, and thats the CHEAP end of Chicagoland. Its not about whos paying more in the end, its that you have to take into account cost of living depending on where you live. Dayton is one of the cheapest places to live in the US, outside of Detroit. You say you can afford things with the wage you made at Walgreens, I assure you that the wage doesnt change from whichever Walgreens you work at, but the cost of living is a night and day difference. Take that into account.

Main cities will always be expensive. That's why you have to live in what's called bedside communities for cheap rent and housing. But if you increase the taxes of the rich guess who will get it? City of LA is paying almost 10% sales tax, because of that everything went up, including rent. That's why I don't shop there anymore. This is the Democrats way of balancing the budget.

3. And might I remind you, this thread didn't start as a jab at Obama's healthcare plan, it started as a dumbass comment about socialism, which in itself covers MANY different subjects other than just healthcare. Again, I solved the healthcare issue for you some time back, you have yet to respond to me. As for Wal-mart, I told you what I thought about them, READ. There isn't any point to me talking about the healthcare anymore until you address my point about paying people more to afford it.

That's going to fail. As you see the deficit is at 11 trillion. Obama said he would balance the budget and reduce decifit this year alone. It hasn't happened. He said there would be 60 million jobs created under his plan by summertime. It hasn't happened. If Obama wants to do something about healthcare he needs to control its out of control cost. He needs to get rid of those union organizers who keeps giving themselves raises.

4. BTW, 50 million people do not have health coverage. If some of them are saving money for a house, or vehicle, that doesn't mean they should sacrifice what they are saving for to pay for health insurance. And think, some people might have more than just one mouth to feed.

BTW, paying your parents rent doesn't cut it with me at all. Move out, then start talking to me. Im even suprised Ive been talking to you this long about issues you have yet to experience.

You shouldn't tell people where to live. That's up to him if he wants to live with his parents. The way things are and how expensive things are you'll be seeing more people living with their parents or helping their parents out. I did. I helped my parents out when I was single. He is entitled to his opinion.

I'm one of those 50 million people that doesn't have a healthcare insurance. I mentioned it in the other thread that you locked. I started off paying $187 out of my own pocket when I was single. Then it went up to $224, $278, $325 all in less than 5 years. Guess how many times I visited the doctor? Once!!! And that was from a severe achilles tendon. They didn't give me surgery like they are suppose to because my insurance doesn't cover it. That's why I stopped paying for it because I was upset for paying so much. That's why I walk a little funny to this day.

[kala]

Re: Socialism at Work!

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

How do you know they are tax payers as well? Are you talking about EVERYONE?

Is EVERYONE paying taxes in the country? Is that what you're trying to say Shirl? Im lost with the first part.

It's all relative. You chose to live there. If you don't like it there. MOVE.

I do choose to live here, I also make more. But there are plenty of people, PLENTY, in this city that have no means of going anywhere. Can't just up and leave, not everyone owns three cars.

This is simply not true. He has put forth more logical facts in a tactful, more mature way without name-calling or derogatory remarks. This guy has class.

You and Thor agree with him, making him look better. Ive had people back my opinions as well. To each their own. Not to mention Im the type of person who has some compassion for a fellow countryman. Poor or not.

Makes no sense. How do you "pay people more to afford it" when businesses/employers can barely keep afloat. ?? Do you pay for you're own healthcare?

I gave him two hypothetical choices, either pay people more, or get taxed. Current system is broken, and with people not working, a health savings account is not viable. I said this twice in this thread, no one has said ANYTHING to it till now.

You were saying that the working people should pay more out of their taxes to pay for overall government healthcare but now you are saying they shouldn't have to sacrifice their savings for a house, vehicle, ect?

NOT what I was saying. I do not think for one minute taxing the middle class is going to do anything. Taxing the upper class, big business and higher tarriffs on imported goods is whats going to get that money.

I shouldn't have to point these things out, but you are constantly trying to discredit me instead of my viewpoint...

Im discrediting your experience with things you have no experience with. Your facts have been good, but your experience with things is nil at best. THATS what I discredit, and will continue to do so.

I STARTED A THREAD ON HEALTHCARE AND YOU CLOSED IT AND REFERRED ME BACK TO THIS ONE!!!

I referred everyone back to this one, because having two threads over the same stuff is pointless. But at the same time, this discussion includes any socialistic program, including healthcare. But if you want it open, its open.

you didn't respond to my post about Wal-mart supporting Obamacare... READ!!

Fine. Wal-mart will support Obama's healthcare plan because they can spend less money paying the lawyers to loophole the tax code, or just pay the tax, than it would be to actually give people the healthcare. Happy? I would have figured it was obvious at this point.

I didn't want to get involve in this because this turning into an ugly epic debate. Sorry Wes, I couldn't disagree more.

Surprise surprise.....

We all know it is out of control and becoming out of reach for the average person.

But in the name of capitalism, no one dares touches the very company charging such prices. All three of you identify the problem clearly, but you come up with no solution. All while people still die. Thank the lord above you guys aren't the bueracrats.

That's going to fail. As you see the deficit is at 11 trillion. Obama said he would balance the budget and reduce decifit this year alone. It hasn't happened. He said there would be 60 million jobs created under his plan by summertime. It hasn't happened. If Obama wants to do something about healthcare he needs to control its out of control cost. He needs to get rid of those union organizers who keeps giving themselves raises

You're ready to castrate the man after what, 7 months in office? Again, I will reiterate this ONE MORE TIME. You must understand that no matter WHAT promises are made, there will be pressing issues that the president must deal with as they come. Sometimes things are set aside. Deal with it. If you haven't grasped this concept yet in the 30+ years you've been alive, I have no clue what to tell you. Thats politics for you, its the name of the game.

I'm one of those 50 million people that doesn't have a healthcare insurance. I mentioned it in the other thread that you locked. I started off paying $187 out of my own pocket when I was single. Then it went up to $224, $278, $325 all in less than 5 years. Guess how many times I visited the doctor? Once!!! And that was from a severe achilles tendon. They didn't give me surgery like they are suppose to because my insurance doesn't cover it. That's why I stopped paying for it because I was upset for paying so much. That's why I walk a little funny to this day.

You walking funny has no impact on national healthcare. You chose not to have the surgury. You would rather deal with the funny walk than to actually go to the hospital and get that fixed. To each their own I guess. And your idea of ordering people to have mandatory health insurance is rediculous. Reason being, it may be cheap when you're young, $40 a month persay, compared to the elderly, which could see monthly premiums in the hundreds. Nice try, but not close.

All I have heard from T-Mill, Shirl, and Thor are the problems with national healthcare, but NONE of them come with a VIABLE solution to these people without healthcare insurance. And just to let you know, my union supports my insurance, even when I have been laid off for over a month now. My health insurance is free to me, my employers pay 100% of my premium. I only see very low deducts, and low maximums. You would figure with the price of health insurance, that there wouldn't be many electrical companies, funny thing is, theres over 1000 union electrical companies in the cook county area, supporting 18,000 electricians. If you can tell me how they can stay afloat, Id LOVE to hear it, especially since there is also 400 non-union electrical companies in Cook County as well. This is where my logic wins T-Mill, from EXPERIENCE. I don't talk from theory, I talk from experience. Its the reason why I can prove to you that a company can not only survive, but flourish even when that employer has to eat the full costs of healthcare to their employees. 90% of these shops here, have less than 100 employees in them. If you can figure out how these businesses can and others can't, I'll be glad to hear it.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

So you're not willing to admit what actually IS obvious, and that's the fact that Wal-Mart recognizes that this bill will kill their competition? Your logic on that doesn't make any sense because even by your logic: that they are supporting it bc it will be cheaper... it would still be cheaper to NOT support Obamacare... and with support for the bill fading, why would they do anything that would change that???

Having a union in an electrical company is different from having a union in manufacturing such as the auto industry... If people buy cars they're going to buy quality cars, if people need electrical service, they're going to pay for quality electrical service... The difference is, if the prices of both go up, people will stop buying new cars, whereas electricity is a necessity that people can't do without... I'm happy for you that your company provides you with so many benefits because of your union, and as I've said, unions are important and I'm not totally against them, but they DO act outside their role in many cases and in many cases are a big determining factor for companies moving... plus, where would an electric country move if they did decide they wanted to make more money by evading the unions? India? Mexico? places where manufacturing companies go? Some of these countries don't even provide electricity to half their residents...

Basically your logic of Experience over common sense is flawed bc YOUR experience doesn't apply across the board, and YOUR experience seems to have hampered your ability to be objective and see the big picture, so in this case I would argue that my inexperience holds more weight bc I won't denounce someone or support someone based on their experience, I'll listen to what they have to say instead of focusing on who they are and where they've come from... And even more... you've been DEAD wrong about EVERY SINGLE one of your assumptions about me... so just ****ing stop with it already... argue with my views stop bringing my past or current situation in life into the mix... don't forget, you know VERY little about me

So we should only trust someone with experience and pay no attention to someone with little to none? According to that statement YOU should've voted for McCain...

and just because I haven't experienced something doesn't mean that I don't have good ideas... If I agreed with you under my same experiences you wouldn't be questioning my experience, so all I'm asking is that you stop using that as a crutch to support YOUR theories... whether I base my views on MY experience, or others experience, or common sense, or theory... a valid point is a valid point so attack the points I make all you want, but I'm tired of feeling like I'm defending myself instead of defending my views...

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

And I've said throughout this thread several different tweaks to the current system that will help those who can't afford health insurance... as well as sent you one of the GOP plans... I don't think that I have all the answers, and haven't claimed to when it comes to healthcare, but I HAVE said that nationalized healthcare is not only a bad idea, it's possibly the worst if you look at all of the damage it will do to healthcare plus the debt, job loss, higher taxes as a result of the debt, resulting in less money available in the market, which will result in more job loss... It's a BAD idea... there are other ideas out there but there's no point in arguing them if Obamacare passes because once it's passed, there's no turning back and the damage will be done...

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

just to reiterate... I don't live with my parents lol... I've been on my own since just before I was 19, and have been on my own ever since...working and going to school... completely irrelevant, but since it was brought up...

[4thgenowner]

Re: Socialism at Work!

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

So you're not willing to admit what actually IS obvious, and that's the fact that Wal-Mart recognizes that this bill will kill their competition? Your logic on that doesn't make any sense because even by your logic: that they are supporting it bc it will be cheaper... it would still be cheaper to NOT support Obamacare... and with support for the bill fading, why would they do anything that would change that???

That bill will be cheaper for THEM, not everyone else, because they will only pay what they cannot get around paying. Its the whole reason why they employ lawyers in the first place. Not to mention, your LACK OF EXPERIENCE shows greatly here. Wal-mart is going to do whatever they can to support their "constituents" whenever possible, which mainly includes low income people. Of course Wal-Mart is going to jump on this boat, its GREAT PR for them.

Basically your logic of Experience over common sense is flawed bc YOUR experience doesn't apply across the board, and YOUR experience seems to have hampered your ability to be objective and see the big picture,

Experience over common sense?? Common sense is a matter of perspective my friend. I don't believe it to be common sense to continue with the way our health care is in this country. And your GOP reform package isn't much better, especially with alot of people not working.

argue with my views

I have argued your views until there isn't anything worth arguing about anymore. Your views are flawed, and Ive put holes in that. Its apparent that after this long you still have yet to read. And you've had one idea, that really wasn't a good one seeing that not everyone is working right now, and jobs are being lost day in and day out. I keep saying this over and over and over, and you keep not reading over and over and over. You use too much theory over practicality.

you've been DEAD wrong about EVERY SINGLE one of your assumptions about me... so just ****ing stop with it already...

Doesnt feel good does it? But it is nothing less than what you are doing to the working poor and homeless of this country.

So we should only trust someone with experience and pay no attention to someone with little to none? According to that statement YOU should've voted for McCain...

Yes and no. I didn't vote for someone with experience, I voted for the person who best matched my ideas. And McCain is a dumb**** who dodged every question thrown at him, similar to what you have done everytime I ask you about a viable solution to give 50 million people healthcare.

and just because I haven't experienced something doesn't mean that I don't have good ideas...

Youve had ONE idea, and its not viable, yet again I must repeat that.

whether I base my views on MY experience, or others experience, or common sense, or theory... a valid point is a valid point so attack the points I make all you want, but I'm tired of feeling like I'm defending myself instead of defending my views...

I take a great deal of respect, attention, and time out of my day for someone that can carry themselves better than you. I have NO PROBLEM laying my life out for you, I am an open book, and you can judge me all you want, I have no issues with it, because I have NOTHING to hide. Your view are what you are, they are you. If you can't defend your views as well as yourself, than I think you need to re-evaluate your views, because it seems like you take offense when someone attacks you and your views. My views are a part of me, no different from me at all. If you don't want yourself to be judged as well as your views, stop talking. Its all I can tell you.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

I've been on my own since just before I was 19,

I haven't lived with my parents since about 12 days before I turned 18

Did I just catch you in a lie? Wanna get your story straight? And you wonder why I am attacking you as well as your beliefs.

[4thgenowner]

Re: Socialism at Work!

All hail Hypnotoad.

[Shirl]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Did I just catch you in a lie? Wanna get your story straight? And you wonder why I am attacking you as well as your beliefs.

:rollseyes: Who cares. Fact of the matter is he doesn't live with his parents. What do you want to do? Go over his house and find out? :tdown:Get a life already... instead of collecting unemployment, mooching off the system and wasting time posting this kind of senseless crap, GO FIND A JOB!

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

If he can't even get his lie straight, then why continue this? I won't respond to this anymore, unless its from someone else now. If T-Mill can't get his story straight, then everything he has said to this point now has no weight with me at all because of his inability to get his own personal facts straight. So I won't respond to him anymore. I will respond to anyone else.

BTW, what I do with my time is my business. My employer paid into that unemployment I collect, and I paid into the subpay I receive from my union. I collect a total of $2280 a month, why would I pass that up for a fast food job paying minimum wage? Id have to be stupid.

[Shirl]

Re: Socialism at Work!

If he can't even get his lie straight, then why continue this? I won't respond to this anymore, unless its from someone else now. If T-Mill can't get his story straight, then everything he has said to this point now has no weight with me at all because of his inability to get his own personal facts straight. So I won't respond to him anymore. I will respond to anyone else.

I don't see how this is relevant to the issues being discussed. You're just making excuses because you don't want to be challenged any longer.

BTW, what I do with my time is my business. My employer paid into that unemployment I collect, and I paid into the subpay I receive from my union. I collect a total of $2280 a month, why would I pass that up for a fast food job paying minimum wage? Id have to be stupid.

Right. So basically, you're getting paid to sit on your *** and do nothing... AND btw, not only does your employer pay for you to sit on your ***... so DO THE TAXPAYERS/working class. You paid only a small portion of UE. Check you're pay stubs.

If I were you (and at one time I almost was).. I'd be going on job interviews instead of wasting time/energy here. Just imagine what you could have accomplished already had you used this energy to find a good job or career! The UE is a false sense of security for a limited amount of time.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

I don't see how this is relevant to the issues being discussed. You're just making excuses because you don't want to be challenged any longer.

Ive already gone over the issues being discussed. I think what Im going to have to do is just answer with quotes from stuff Ive already said.

Right. So basically, you're getting paid to sit on your *** and do nothing... AND btw, not only does your employer pay for you to sit on your ***... so DO THE TAXPAYERS/working class. You paid only a small portion of UE. Check you're pay stubs.

If I were you (and at one time I almost was).. I'd be going on job interviews instead of wasting time/energy here. Just imagine what you could have accomplished already had you used this energy to find a good job or career! The UE is a false sense of security for a limited amount of time.

I think you misunderstand what it is I do. Im a communications wireman, I work for a trade union. Construction sucks on all levels, but this is what I do, Im not starting over again doing anything. Ive been unemployed for a little over three weeks, I don't think this will last much longer, possibly a little over a month, maybe two months tops before Im called back to work. Finding a new career would negate the whole purpose of why I came to this city in the first place. I am on a list, once my number is called up, I go back to work. This unemployment crap is only temporary, but its what I have to do right now, seeing as I am an apprentice, and there are certain rules I have to abide by. Thanks for your concern though.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Way to completely ruin a solid debate Mogobs...

and No you caught me with a typo 19 is correct 18 is not (those two buttons happen to be right next to eachother)...

There is no need to bring someone's personal life into a debate... the issue is on trial, not me... but you can't help yourself, if you were able to fully discredit my beliefs then you wouldn't feel the need to discredit me... it's a shame because for a while this actually was an intellectual debate... and I've done nothing to change that, that was all you...

Someone should just close this thread because it has become pointless, the same way Mogobs closed mine on me...