Socialism at Work!

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Ive already discredited your beliefs. Its getting repetitive, as again, I have said this crap too many times now. You keep saying the same stuff over and over, and I keep giving you the same answers over and over. You come up with a viable solution to the problem, and I'll listen. We already know the problems you have with national healthcare, I have seen them, addressed them, and keep telling you that its one of two solutions to the issue at hand, but you STILL do not offer an alternative to the two solutions I gave. So instead of regurgitating the SAME INFO I have read for the last two days, come up with a solid solution to the problem of insuring 50 million people.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

The entire argument from my side has been whether or not socialized healthcare is a good idea, and you've yet to support that... I've given several reason why it's a terrible idea, just because it's the only idea YOU have doesn't mean it's what we need... you are right Socialized healthcare will insure the people who can't afford insurance... (less than 50 million... even OBAMA has admitted that of the 50 million uninsured, it includes people who could afford it, but choose not to... that's why he changed from his campaign position... in his campaign he said that he wanted a public OPTION... now he says that everyone should be required to carry health insurance 50 million is an inappropriate number for your argument just because you say it's 50 million doesn't make it 50 million... many people who live outside of Chicago and make the minimum wage that you cite could afford insurance)

My position has always been that Obamacare is a bad idea, and that Socialized medicine is a bad idea... of course most of it's regurgitated info bc you've failed to acknowledge it...

I'm not arguing whether or not people should be able to afford health insurance... as you said... I'm arguing AGAINST socialized healthcare... not for anything else per se...

My argument is that we need something else besides socialized healthcare, and just because I don't have a detailed plan of how to approach that doesn't make me wrong on the fact that socialized healthcare is wrong... and it's pointless to give any alternatives until there is no longer the threat of socialized healthcare bc if it gets passed there is no turning back...

^Yes much of that is regurgitated, but as long as you fail to recognize my position that's what I'm going to keep saying because if you fail to understand my position, then you fail to argue against it

I'm not saying my plan is better than your plan... I'm just saying your plan sucks a BIG one

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

If socialized healthcare gets passed the way Obama wants it to, which is in a hurry... how do you expect other plans to surface and enter the debate... I'm not an expert on the issue by any means and neither are you, I recognize it and so should you...

Maybe the reason Obama wants to rush the bill is so that no alternatives can be presented... or maybe it's because he knows that once more people begin to learn what the actual consequences of the bill are they won't support it... I don't know what the reasons are... but whatever they are, they're killing any hopes of debate since few alternatives have been presented because all energy is focused on preventing Obamacare...

I believe it was you who said that putting things aside to work on more pressing issues is "part of the political game" maybe YOU should start reading your posts...

[kala]

Re: Socialism at Work!

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

The reason why Obama is rushing this is because of the need for healthcare. Other plans can surface, but at the same time, you can't just sit back and stall either, which is what the GOP is wanting to do right now. As long as it is stalled, its not effective.

My position has always been that Obamacare is a bad idea, and that Socialized medicine is a bad idea... of course most of it's regurgitated info bc you've failed to acknowledge it...

I acknowledge it clearly. You don't like the healthcare plan because it presents (in your opinion) inferior healthcare, increases taxes, has a supposed backlog for services. You think it is un-American to tax big business that way because they should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. You don't like it because you believe that it will put small businesses out of business because they can't withstand the costs of the additional tax. Your fine with reform so long as that reform doesn't cost you a dime.

In turn, I have disproved your THEORETICAL tax rate of 70%, partially because your math was dumb, where you got it from (ABC?) is goofy, they didn't do their math right either

I have disproved your theory and facts of where the governments gross income comes from, and how it is divided, partially because your piechart was a little off.

I have proven with not one, but TWO examples of small businesses that survive WELL even while offering some of the best insurance offered on the market, and STILL turn a profit, disproving your theory that a small business would suffer from paying the added cost.

I have proven to you (along with someone else as well) that affording healthcare on a menial and minimum salary is next to impossible unless you're 22 years old and in perfect health. YOU could afford it, someone that is in their older age would not be able to. I gave you examples from Blue Cross's website, showing you prices of healthcare for many different scenario's, ages, family, individuals, and what not. You haven't responded to how people could afford it.

I have proven to you with examples from such companies as Wal-mart that such incentives as healthcare and retirement can be easily taken or not offered if that company has managed to control a local monopoly in a small market, forcing people to move away, or accept a lower standard of living.

You have been proven wrong by Mike88 about accounts of healthcare rationing. He LIVES in the country, and doesn't even know what you're talking about.

I have given you links, charts, and whatever I can to support my facts. You have yet to read them. ALL you have done is reiterate the SAME CRAP OVER AND OVER, and when you're not doing that, you're complaining that Im directing personal attacks at you, in 3 threads you were complaining simply on the fact that I was attacking you, and on more than 10 of them you were opening your life up, talking about your grandparents, your experiece at Walgreens, or your parents misfortunes. If you don't want your personal life attacked, DONT TALK ABOUT IT. As for your opinions on how healthcare would effect taxes, Ive put a hole in it due to the fact you apparently can't do math. I have answered your questions, given you two examples of healthcare that can be provided by employers, and have given you two choices that would help other than nationalized healthcare, you have given me NOTHING.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

lol... you've misunderstood sooooo much of what I've said... I didn't say that the tax rate of 70% or what ever would be immediate, I said eventual... I have no problem with math...

You've given me two examples of businesses? That doesn't apply across the board... My parents worked for two different companies until recently, both who were in basically the same industry, the one my dad worked at went out of business, the one my mom worked at is thriving... Plenty of businesses can survive... two examples prove nothing, I gave you an example of a business that could NOT survive...

You have not proven to me that it is impossible to afford healthcare on a minimum wage salary or even close to it... you've just proven that it costs more to live in a large city than a small ****-hole as u put it... it CAN be done... you may have to live cheaper, but it CAN be done... and u mentioned... what if you have more than one mouth to feed: if you can't afford kids... it's irresponsible to have them...

I have seen your links and stats... and I've pointed out their flaws... who was the author of the pie chart you showed me? Mine's author was the CBO which is pretty much the gold standard for predicting and reporting federal spending... you can show me all the stats you want, but if they're from an unreliable source, or less reliable than mine, then I'm not going to comment on them because I didn't want this to become an argument of whose info was better so if I felt it unreliable I just moved on... If I wanted to, I could find you links and pie charts "proving" anything... the reliability of the source for STATISTICS is important...

Mike88 didn't prove anything to me... I've read the reports from Canada, UK... I have family in the Netherlands who have complained... his experience is just one in an entire country... if you call that "proof" then that explains alot... rationing doesn't only include just being told "no" for the service... there are waiting lists... there are different ways of paying their physicians... There are people who receive sub-standard care exclusively due to Socialized healthcare because the government can't afford it... I wish I had as much time on my hands, because I would sit here and search the web to try and find some of the articles I read at the library with stories about rationing... but you'd probably discredit them somehow as Right-wing conservative propaganda... oh well...

if you want socialized health care... then good for you, maybe you should move to Massachusetts, their state-run healthcare is doing well... The VA healthcare system is doing great also... no substandard treatment going on there, no waiting lists either...

and I'm out...

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

lol... I feel ya Jerry

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

My g/f sent me an e-mail asking if I wanted to go to the Nickelback concert Aug 21st in Chicago... lol MOGOBS!!! wanna meet up for a beer on me? :D

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

My g/f sent me an e-mail asking if I wanted to go to the Nickelback concert Aug 21st in Chicago... lol MOGOBS!!! wanna meet up for a beer on me? :D

Does she know the venue?

[StrtRacer98]

Re: Socialism at Work!

My g/f sent me an e-mail asking if I wanted to go to the Nickelback concert Aug 21st in Chicago... lol MOGOBS!!! wanna meet up for a beer on me? :D

Beers are only $11 there!

Does she know the venue?

First Midwest Bank Ampitheatre in tinley park, formerly known as tweeter center.

[T-Mill]

Re: Socialism at Work!

First Midwest Amphitheatre, I believe...

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Helluva drive for me......but the woman works in Orland Park, so its not too unfamiliar of an area.

[StrtRacer98]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Helluva drive for me......but the woman works in Orland Park, so its not too unfamiliar of an area.

Arent you in schaumburg? Thats only half an hour, max from there.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Schaumburg to Tinley?? More like an hour depending on traffic. Its only a half hour if I drive at 2am.

[StrtRacer98]

Re: Socialism at Work!

Yea, it all depends, 355 usually moves so fast, and goes straight to 80 now, but it may take a bit longer with traffic.