Automatic and Standard difference

[DYNAMIKO]

I have 2000 automatic camaro, and run a 16.2 in the 1/4 mile. I was wondering how much faster would i be if my car were standard? Is it really that much of a difference? From the posts i've read some of you make it seem like it is.

[Bliggida]

Going from the slush box to bang mode is a performance improvement almost always in any vehicle platform. But especially in ours.

A litte background. Up to the 700R, and subsequent 4L60-E, the Turbo 350 was a 2.52:1 first gear ratio. Relatively weak for performance. The Turbo 400 was even worse at I believe a 2.42:1. Compared to today's T56's 2.66:1 first gear, better! But is still somewhat soft. But with a manual it allows you to launch at a higher RPM than the automatic (in stock configuration) so a 3.06:1 first gear of the 4L60-E and a launch of 1500 RPM makes XXX horsepower. But a launch from a 2.66:1 first gear and 3,000 RPM, the manual clearly has more horsepower and torque spinning than the automatic can muster. So, basically that's why the automatic transmission has a lower first gear. To help make up the difference (some of it goes back to just being a good tranny for towing in truck applicatins too) And for a long time the 3.06 first gear ratio of the 700R and 4L60 was sought after by many a drag racer as the end all/be all.

However GM decided to for some reason make the (M49) T-5 in the L36 F-body a wickedly geared one. So they gave us an extremely low first gear ratio of 3.75:1 which blows the 3.06 out of the water. And then you combine the ability to launch at any RPM, we leave out the hole faster and harder, and pull harder through the gears with a gearing advantage at the transmission.

What kills the manual transmission equipped cars are the final gearing out back. 3.08's normally. Compared to the automatics 3.42's. Yet the Manual still manages to run faster.

Gear specs goes as follows.
4L60-E:
3.06
1.62
1
.70

T-5
3.75
2.19
1.41
1
.72

The Manual will pull harder in each gear, and in fact, if we were to try to even things out, in order to equal the 2nd gear shift of a 4L60, a T-5 would have to bypass second gear and shift to third. And boy what a dog that would make it.

On top of the straight gearing advantage a manual will shift much harder than a stock automatic - enough to spin the tires in 2nd gear. Something a stock automatic could only dream about behind a stock V6.

With an automatic I have seen them go about 15.8 or so. But with a manual you can see 15.5 to 15.3's.

The drawback to a manual tranny is that most people tend to be inconsistant with them. This only matters if you are bracket racing really, but in terms of being able to go heads up. The Manual all things being equal will win. A good manual driver as much as people like to criticize can be consistant with their ET's. As its really all in driving the car. You stick your launch, and stick all your shifts, you are going to stay within a few hundredths everytime.

[99Camaro99]

correction on your long post. Manuals have 3.23s and automatics have either 3.08s or 3.42s. No manual V6 Fbody comes stock with 3.08s

[mr_man]

From what i've gathered on here, there really isn't that much of a difference. 3.08's should pull high 15's stock, 3.42's should pull mid 15's, and the manual's are low to mid 15's. Not much of a difference if you have the 3.42's.

[mr_man]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mr_man:
From what i've gathered on here, there really isn't that much of a difference. 3.08's should pull high 15's stock, 3.42's should pull mid 15's, and the manual's are low to mid 15's. Not much of a difference if you have the 3.42's.<hr></blockquote>

edit: 16.2 seems kinda slow for a 3.8 with any mods. Are you launching (break troqueing) or just flooring it?

[Wicked 3800 V6]

Of course, look at the top timeslips, and you see that it's almost all autos. They launch a million times better, hit harder, and do infact shift quicker (when kitted, etc.)
-Rob

[Dominic]

Well, the manuals really only have the advantage in top end mph, not ET.

The thing is about a manual is you can run it however you like it, the A4 is governed by the torque converter specs.

Gearing on the manual is better, thats what gives you the quicker mph in the 1/4. I come out of my 1/4 in 3rd gear which is 1.41 * 3.23 = 4.55 final ratio.

An A4 is coming through the traps with say 3.42s in 3rd which is 1.00... and 1 * 3.42 = 3.42. M5's have the 70-100mph gearing advantage for sure.

If it means anything to you though, both my A4 Firebird and M5 Camaro have run identical times at the levels of modification theyre at. One was a 2000, the other a 2002. A4's aren't slow, they're just more consistant [img]smile.gif[/img]

[satellite98]

plus, an aftermarket TC and shift kit can help the A4. Where a clutch helps the manual

[MustangEater8251]

I ran a 15.8 in a bone stock 2000.

I had a bad launch it was a stickshift.


As for being consistency, I'll bracket race you guys in my "inconsistent stickshift" ;)

[Wicked 3800 V6]

And your broken torque arm. hehe.
-Rob

[99Camaro99]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mr_man:
Not much of a difference if you have the 3.42's.<hr></blockquote>

Care to line me up with someone with 3.08s? I've done it and it was a joke! seriously!

Running from a roll it's a lot closer...but I was still on top at the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img] 3.08s don't hurt anywhere except from a slow speed/stand still.

[Bliggida]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 99Camaro99:
correction on your long post. Manuals have 3.23s and automatics have either 3.08s or 3.42s. No manual V6 Fbody comes stock with 3.08s<hr></blockquote>
Correction on your short post. If you care to look at my door and see my RPO codes, my manual car along with most every other V6 manual car came with a GU4 code - 3.08's Automatics did not come with 3.08's. They came with 3.42's to help offset the parasitic power loss going through the driveline.

3.08's to 3.42's are worth about 21 to 22 horsepower relatively. And they make a nice gain. A open 3.08 manual stands no chance against my Y87/M49.

Dom, I disagree with you though - and here's why...(Automatics won't launch harder, or have an advantage anywhere, short or long end of track) Its impossible (stock) - they eat up more power and put out less power to the wheels.

1st gear
3.06*3.42 = 10.465
3.75*3.08 = 11.55
Manual pulls harder in 1st

2nd gear
1.62*3.42 = 5.540
2.19*3.08 = 6.745
Manual pulls harder in 2nd

3rd gear
1*3.42 = 3.42
1.41*3.08 = 4.342
Manual pulls harder in 3rd

Only place an automatic wins is off the track - in 4th and 5th gear (for the T-5's 1:1, and 0.72:1)

Even then you aren't figuring in that the manual car weighs less, and eats up less power.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: Bliggida ]</p>

[99Camaro99]

buddy you seem to know a lot but this is where you fall short of the mark.

All V6 F-bodies come equipped with either the 4 speed automatic that has 3.08 gears or 3.42s (which is defined as the Y87 package).

All V6 F-bodies equpiied with the 5 speed manual come with 3.23s

Taken from the tech database
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The standard transmission was the Borg-Warner T-5 5-speed manual, with the 4L60-E 4-speed automatic available as an option. The final drive ratio for the manual was 3.23, with 3.08 being standard for cars with the automatic...The Y87 package also gave automatic cars 3.42 rear gears, whereas the manual cars but kept the 3.23 rear gears.
<hr></blockquote>

Look under 1996 for http://tech.firebirdv6.com/general.html

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: 99Camaro99 ]</p>

[DYNAMIKO]

Does my location have anything to do with my 1/4 mile times? It is always hot and dry here in El Paso, Texas. Is that why my best time is a 16.2 stock.

[mr_man]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 99Camaro99:


Care to line me up with someone with 3.08s? I've done it and it was a joke! seriously!

Running from a roll it's a lot closer...but I was still on top at the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img] 3.08s don't hurt anywhere except from a slow speed/stand still.<hr></blockquote>

I was comparing the A4 3.42's to the manual, i might not have worded it the best though.