The new sway bars took a couple runs to get used too :)

[nikon]

well didnt go as I expected it too. On my first run didnt do as hot as I wanted too, very straight and narrow course, so of course it's nothing but a slalom track. Spun out twice the first run got an off course took out a million cones yada yada yada. 55secs ok it sucked but I did a donut in the middle of the track whatcha expect? 2nd & 3rd run were pretty much the same got a 44.8 drifting the back end of the course, and 3rd run a 45.4 which is still decent for having the bars on the car for only a day, and not even driving it. 4th run I was just having fun, it was hot and my dumbass forgot to turn off the A/C oh well, still got my fastest time at a 44.1, being the only one coming through the finish line sideways, it was a quick trip to the bathroom for the finish line workers. still need to setup my alignment correctly, thinking -2 camber set toe and caster too 0. and I gotta start saving up for a set of kumho v700's then Ill be happy. and surprisingly unofficial fastest time of the day was an lt1 camaro, beat z06 elise and everything else out there with a 36.3 I believe. there should be some pics up soon on the autox website Ill post em when there up. if theres any luck they got the one of me sideways through the finish line [img]smile.gif[/img] k, bye [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

[John_D.]

What bars did you put on it? Sounds like the rear is a little stiff...

Toe to zero sounds good.

Caster should probably be maxed out. That will give you more dynamic camber when cornering. Not sure if the stock slots will even let you go to zero on caster.

Sounds like you had fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[nikon]

Originally posted by John_D.:
What bars did you put on it? Sounds like the rear is a little stiff...

BMR 32/19 solid ya, I need some new tires. the rear is stiff, but manageable, just had to get used to it. and ya, had loads of fun ;)

[shenanigans]

Cool, I say just get used to it... with the factory sway bars, seems like you can romp the hell out of it and the car just won't brake the rear loose, just practice, getting into the throttle, hell when I had an open diff, I'd dump the clutch coming out of a corner, and it woudl just hook and shoot forward, or just spin the wheel but the car would still stay relatively straight.

[nikon]

y'know alot of my problem is being an auto, let alone bringing it down into first and bouncing off redline, whenever I go into a corner Im usually at speed for second, when Im coming out it slams into 1st which only further sends me into the spin cycle, gonna have to work on that too. John, are you auto or stick?

[shenanigans]

BTW no front sway bar, 15mm rear sway bar, and 245s in the back, has a little bit of oversteer ;)

[nikon]

Originally posted by shenanigans:
BTW no front sway bar, 15mm rear sway bar, and 245s in the back, has a little bit of oversteer ;)

when were you setup like that?...for the 0$ 14 sec pass?

[shenanigans]

yeah, I hit up the dragstrip on wednesday.. I have a stock sway bars, just pulled the front and I slap on soem 245s, all 4 corners.

My car is still like that been driving around, I think I am going to hit the track on wednesday again. So might as well keep the setup [img]smile.gif[/img]

[John_D.]

Mine's an automatic. I've got 35/21 bars, and Koni SA's.

[FirebirdGT]

Originally posted by John_D.:
Mine's an automatic. I've got 35/21 bars, and Koni SA's.

What size tires are you running with that sway bar combo.

[V6Bob]

You have way too much oversteer to be fast. Too big a rear bar. That overloads the rear tires and makes proper acceleration off the corners (particularly the slow ones) impossible.

"being the only one coming through the finish line sideways, it was a quick trip to the bathroom for the finish line workers"

So you were the only one sideways and also slow. That ain't a coincidence.

"[Oversteer] makes the inexperienced (or ignorant) driver feel heroically fast. In some ways it's a pity that it isn't the fast way around the race track."

BTW, cranking negative camber into the front wheels will make the problem worse. And zero caster simply can't be the hot setup.

[nikon]

Originally posted by V6Bob:
You have way too much oversteer to be fast. Too big a rear bar. That overloads the rear tires and makes proper acceleration off the corners (particularly the slow ones) impossible.

"being the only one coming through the finish line sideways, it was a quick trip to the bathroom for the finish line workers"

So you were the only one sideways and also slow. That ain't a coincidence.

"[Oversteer] makes the inexperienced (or ignorant) driver feel heroically fast. In some ways it's a pity that it isn't the fast way around the race track."

BTW, cranking negative camber into the front wheels will make the problem worse. And zero caster simply can't be the hot setup.

front tires are running too far on the shoulder of the tires, ya its gonna grip more, ya it'll swing my rear end loose more. its better than the insane understeer I was getting.

I always listen to advice given so, whats the hot setup I should be running? and putting a smaller rear bar is out of the question. I can handle the oversteer, just wasnt used to it ;)

[V6Bob]

"whats the hot setup I should be running? and putting a smaller rear bar is out of the question. I can handle the oversteer, just wasnt used to it"

Of course you can handle it. It's just not fast. The rear tires are doing too much work. If you were getting "insane understeer" on an fbody, you were simply driving it into the corner too hard. If the front tires were rolling onto the sidewall, you didn't have enough tire pressure.

The hot setup is a smaller rear bar, and getting on the gas sooner and harder. He who gets on the gas first wins.

"We don't race around corners. We dragrace between them."

[nikon]

k, did'nt say the tires were rolling onto the sidewall, I said they were riding on the shoulder of the tire, big difference. Getting on the gas sooner and harder is just fine, but it wont help you if you get on the gas and the car pushes straight. At least with some oversteer whatever direction the car is facing is the way your wheels will be pushing. Ive raced a couple circle track cars, short tracks 1/8mile, nonetheless, Ive had cars setup both ways, balanced, understeer when coming out of the corner fast, as well as a car with oversteer, I'd come out cocked a bit, but my faster times were always when I came out with the a** end sliding. Now I understand that in long races this tears the hell out of the tires and eventually Id be all over the place, however, autox is'nt long, therefore I still find the oversteer much more beneficial. Please argue your point, I love information.

[V6Bob]

"Please argue your point, I love information."

Talk about an offer I can't refuse. :D

Theoretically, you want all four equally sized tires to do equal work. Since the front tires only have to corner, while the back also have to accelerate, that means you want the front tires to handle more of the cornering. That means, to do best in the all important acceleration phase off the corner, the car will need to understeer a bit otherwise.

The textbook example is to watch the NASCAR guys at Sears Point. Very slow hairpin leading to the long straight. The fast guys come off the hairpin hard (the 800 HP cars with narrow tires must be set up to understeer like a dump truck through the partial throttle esses to do that, but you can't pass anybody there). If they get it a bit wrong and slide the a** end noticeably the guy behind them will pass them on the straight (or make up ground) because he's accelerating better. Watch pro (pavement) racers anywhere, or even the guys who always win at autocross. No oversteer. If they slide the rear they're making a mistake and the guy behind them catches up or passes.

Formula One cars have much bigger rear tires. That means substantial understeer under anything less than full throttle. Drivers seem to think "handling oversteer" is a mark of a good driver, but you won't see (either) Schumacher sliding the rear except when they screw up. Of course, with less power you need less understeer, but every fast race car must have some.

But it takes more then I can post here for the best explanation. "Drive to Win - The Essential Guide to Race Driving" has the most explicit explanation I've seen. "Winning - A Race Drivers Handbook" is interesting because it involves discussions with several drivers including Bertil Roos, the one fairly successful pro driver who comes close to advocating oversteer (but even he doesn't quite, and there's a reason you never heard of him). "Going Faster - Mastering the Art of Race Driving" is a great book, but the point is subtle there, they assume you already know oversteer is bad.

You may or may not be faster than me. But my bookshelf can beat up your bookshelf. :D And you would be faster with less oversteer and proper technique. "Slow in - fast out" is the catch phrase, but it's really more like "Give up a little speed going in to a corner to gain more going out". Additional speed going in is only for a very short time, but additional speed exiting a corner is with you until the next one. "Late apexes" are another piece of the puzzle. There are many reasons this is a tough thing to do right.