Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

[Need4Camaro]

I have a briefing but scroll down until you see Engine Selection if you wanna skip my story...

I have a 2002 Pontiac Firebird 3.8L V6 and IF ALL GOES WELL, I should be able to start my swap in as little as two weeks. I am going to build a Car Domain site when time permits to show everything that I went through over the course. In truth, I have been fixing this car up for about a year now, both mechanically and cosmetically, ever since I purchased it around May in 2009. I used to own a 2001 Camaro Z28 and held it for about 3 - 4 years but I had to let it go to complete college. I'm coming close to graduation and it looks as if the funds for my car are back and my passion for Horse Power has never diminished.

The Car








Having come from an LS1 car to begin with, my standards are slightly inflated so I have to smoke LT1's and be able to take out LS1's as well for it to gain the desirability factor. For this reason, out of my choice list I had to opt the Super Charger idea out as I'd only be neck and neck with LT1's and only under extreme conditions be able to take an LS1. Also coming from a car that has NEVER failed me when time met demand, my Firebird also has to be extremely reliable and feasible so for that reason, I opted out of the Turbo Charger Setup. I actually liked the idea of a Turbo Setup and I have to admit I've seen some amazingly creative stuff here in the Forced Induction Section but I am WAY to afraid of popping a piston or warping a bearing as my car already has 120K Miles and I don't want to invest in rebuilding the 3.8L and build a money pit. Also down here in the south we see 115 Degrees in the summer regularly and I cannot depend on Methanol or extra octane to carry me through hot days as this car has to be feasible, no way around that as I drive it every day and put 50 - 100 miles on her daily as well. IF the turbo setup can survive temps of 115 Degrees Fahrenheit without needing Methanol or extra octane with the use of an Air-to-Air inter cooler in which I will not need to remove my bird emblem to use, then I might consider it. Remember Firebird's get a lot less airflow in the radiator area than Camaro's do.

Here's whats going on...

The car MUST:
1. Have between 370 and 450 Horse Power at the crank.
2. Make a minimum of 23 MPG Highway
3. Be reliable and ready to drive between 50 and 100 miles DAILY through both Highway AND Stop and Go conditions (50/50)
4. Be ready to sustain high summer heat conditions in stop and go traffic. I'm worry that the Turbo won't like this.

Set in stone:

Transmission: Rebuilt A4 4L60E

Rear End: 3.42 Rear Axel with LSD (stock 10 Bolt.. I don't launch hard so I'm not worried.)

Suspension: Front Z28 Springs, Stock Rear Springs, New KYB Struts/Shocks, Aftermarket Sway Bars, Sub Frame Connectors, Strut Tower Brace (I'm VERY afraid of using Lowering Springs for the Z28 because I scuff the ground effects very easily as is.)

Fuel: Racetronix Fuel Pump, Motor will come with the injectors, Corvette style fuel rail, braided fuel lines.

Bolt-ons: True Dual Exhaust System with Hi-Flow Cats and X-Pipe, LS1 MTI Clear LID, FRA Mod or SSRA, 160 Degree Thermo, Tune, High-Amp Alternator (going to be running additional electronics), POSSIBLY Electric Water Pump but I'm concerned about their reliability and not sure if the gains are worth their price.
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Engine Selection

This is what I need help on... I have a major selection and I can't out weigh them.

The mechanic who's going to be doing the swap has his own motor, a 5.3L V8 Motor in which he will throw in an LS6 Cam and Port the 5.3L Heads. Will this reach my power goal? I was also considering an Bolton LS2 or a LQ9 with L92 Heads.

Option 1 - 5.3L LM7 / LY7 Engine with LS6 Cam and 5.3L Ported Heads.
(The shop installing this has the engine under warranty and will fully cover anything that should go wrong with the motor for 6 months after the installation. He will also discount the labor if I use his motor)

Motor - $900
Heads - $1,000
Cam - $275
Labor- $700

Total: $2,875 in MOTOR

Option 2 - 6.0L LQ4 or LQ9 Engine with L92 Heads
(No discount for anything going this route and if a problem occurs with the engine I choose, I'm on my own. Using stock Cam for this setup.)

Motor - $1,200
Heads - $1,200
Labor - $1,200

Total: $3,600 in MOTOR

Option 3 - 6.0L LS2 Engine
(Alluminum, Lighter, but it's not cheap... but the stock motor alone will easily meet my power goals and a tune plus my bolt-ons will probably net me at least 30 extra horses.)

Motor - $5,000
Labor - $1,200

Total: $6,200 in MOTOR

ALL THREE MOTOR OPTIONS will have less than 50K miles on the motor.

What would you choose?

Btw, I know 90% of you will say this swap isn't worth it and buy a Z28 car, but I like my Bird and intend on keeping it for quite some time. I just need more than 200 HP out of it. For me this will be a project and a life experience to remember.

[ssms5411]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

LS2 motor/tranny and get headers, intake and tune. Meathanol injection just helps up the timing and reduce KR it doesn't need to be running all the time. A bigger radiator and better cooling fans will help keep the engine cool. I'm in AZ which is hot 7 months out of the year. But I don't DD mine anymore but even with the bigger engines you'll need bigger radiator/fans to keep the engine cool.

[Need4Camaro]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

LS2 motor/tranny and get headers, intake and tune. Meathanol injection just helps up the timing and reduce KR it doesn't need to be running all the time. A bigger radiator and better cooling fans will help keep the engine cool. I'm in AZ which is hot 7 months out of the year. But I don't DD mine anymore but even with the bigger engines you'll need bigger radiator/fans to keep the engine cool.

This is true, The Meth Route I didn't know it didn't always have to be running. Where do you store your Meth anyway? Ah well... With a Turbo Setup built for 400 HP, how would it like the conditions I just explained WITHOUT Meth? Bigger motors won't need as much cooling systems as a turbo would because Turbo's produce a lot of extra heat in the engine compartment and they also charge the intake with a lot of extra heat due to physics and pressure.

[mrhobbz]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

Don't forget the steering rack that you'll need and all the little parts that will end up wiggling their way onto your parts list. Try to find a wrecked ls1 fbody, makes the swap a hell of a lot easier imo.

[cam98aro]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

Don't forget the steering rack that you'll need and all the little parts that will end up wiggling their way onto your parts list. Try to find a wrecked ls1 fbody, makes the swap a hell of a lot easier imo.

i agree, it will be much cheaper this way also.

im assuming you are going with a stock ls1 k member, and not a tubular one.

buying the wrecked car will give you the engine, trans, and k member, and any steering stuff you will need

its not that hard to get 370+hp out of an ls1, they are rated at 350hp for the vette, but the z28/ss were underrated to make the vette look better, some stock ones dynod at around 350 at the crank, put a good set of heads on there and a better intake manifold, and there is your HP/mpg goal.

[techsan23]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

As far as option 1 goes, I dont think I would pay an additional $1000 for the porting. I would hang onto the money until I had the $1800 for a pair of aftermarket Dart heads with bigger valves. Is the LS6 cam the mechanic mentioned is used? Your going to need to upgrade valve springs if you use it. I agree with 98 on using an LS6 intake manifold. The cam, headers and intake alone will put down some fairly impressive numbers.

Budget a few extra hundred for the LS6 intake, motor mounts, f-body oil pan and windage tray / pickup. These items are available, but remain in high demand. You can pickup an LS1 steering shaft on e-bay so the headers clear for about $20. Gaskets and head bolts alone will probably run you around $350. I would also start checking availability on the ecm and wiring harness to match each of your options.

[transamtom1]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

I like option 2 the best,the weight penalty is 80lbs not a big deal overall.

[Need4Camaro]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

I had all the MISC stuff planned out for the most part, I just haven't posted it to keep this thread focused on the motor selections but I guess I should go ahead and post it anyway just to make sure I am on track...

To perform this swap I will need...

Electronics

ECM - Free (Shops providing from a wrecked Z28)

Wiring Harness - I can get this used for about $150 (Shop's discounting it) or new for $400 from Painless ... I am probably going to bite the bullet and go with Painless...

Mechanical

Pedals - Not sure how much this will cost but I highly doubt it will break $150

Accessories - Brackets - $400 New, Used I can get it as low as $150.

Water Pump, Power Steering Pump, and Belts - All new for $500 - I was told else were that I could reuse my stock Power Steering Pump as long as I had the LS1 brackets which would save me $300 - but I factored it anyway.

Steering Rack - I figured I'd spend between $50 and $75 for it but thats not going to dent anything.

Radiator - $50

Fans - Might upgrade them, not sure yet but I will also include a manual fan switch.

Fuel Pump - Racetronix $150

Intake Manifold - Depends a lot on the choice I go with but lets be on the safe side and say a Typhoon 85 MM - $450, or FAST 78MM - $800... I could go LS6 as well with no issue I suppose -$300...

Exhaust Headers - $300

TD's - $350 (Quoted)

LID - LS1 MT1 Lid $100

Oil Pan - $275

Suspension / Chassis

LS1 K-Member - $150 or Tubular K-Member - $525 (If I go with an Iron Block I'm most likely going to stick with the LS1 K-Member, although the Tubular is lighter, the LS1 is stronger.)

Front Springs / Struts - I'm replacing all the Shocks / Struts and the Front Springs - $100 for the springs $300 for the Struts/Shocks all the way around.

On the LOW SIDE this project will cost: $2,925 + Engine, Trans, Mods, and Labor

On the HIGH SIDE this project will cost: $4,325 + Engine, Trans, Mods, and Labor

If I go with an LS1 or LS2, It will cost: $2,225 + Engine, Trans, Mods, and Labor...
========================
5.3L Motor - $900
Trans - $900 Built to 500 HP (Getting one hell of a deal here.)
Mods - LS6 Cam-$285
Heads-$1,000
Labor - $700

Total for 5.3L - $6,710
========================
6.0L Motor - $1,200
Trans - $900
Mods - Heads-$1,200
Labor - $1,200

Total for 6.0L - $7,426
========================
LS1 Motor / Trans Combo for 50k miles or less - AROUND $4,500
Heads - $1,000
Cam - $285
Labor - $1,200

Total for LS1 - $7,635
========================
LS2 Motor / Trans Combo for 50k miles or less - AROUND $5,700
Labor - $1,200

Total for LS2 - $9,125

Don't forget the steering rack that you'll need and all the little parts that will end up wiggling their way onto your parts list. Try to find a wrecked ls1 fbody, makes the swap a hell of a lot easier imo.

Yea, I have all the other parts already accounted for, that's why the prices only say for motor, btw I thought the steering rack for the LS1 and V6 between 98 and 02 are the same, there's no difference IIRC it's only 93 - 97 that uses the different rack to clear the headers??? Even if they are different, that won't hurt the budget.

i agree, it will be much cheaper this way also.

im assuming you are going with a stock ls1 k member, and not a tubular one.

buying the wrecked car will give you the engine, trans, and k member, and any steering stuff you will need

its not that hard to get 370+hp out of an ls1, they are rated at 350hp for the vette, but the z28/ss were underrated to make the vette look better, some stock ones dynod at around 350 at the crank, put a good set of heads on there and a better intake manifold, and there is your HP/mpg goal.

I actually was aiming for a tubular one, but I have heard that the LS1 Tubular ones have broken before and dropped the engine to the ground and I definitely don't want to trust it to an Iron Block if it couldn't even support an aluminum one.

I know how the LS1's are at 350 HP but there's one major deterrent upon buying a wrecked Z28 or T/A and thats the fact that for the same price, I will have everything I need to swap brand new with less than 50k miles on the Iron Block motor only where as to find a reasonably priced LS1 you'll be looking at over 50k - 80k miles... I know the engines are reliable but for the same power output, I can do it much cheaper with an Iron Block even with compiling the remaining necessities, Engine, K-Member, Accessories, Powertrain, Wiring Harness, ECM, Radiator, ect ect... I still come out at least $500 cheaper if I go with the 5.3L and it's about the same with the 6.0L but the 6.0 will be making HEAPS more power, and easier too while having less miles.

As far as option 1 goes, I don't think I would pay an additional $1000 for the porting. I would hang onto the money until I had the $1800 for a pair of aftermarket Dart heads with bigger valves. Is the LS6 cam the mechanic mentioned is used? Your going to need to upgrade valve springs if you use it. I agree with 98 on using an LS6 intake manifold. The cam, headers and intake alone will put down some fairly impressive numbers.

Budget a few extra hundred for the LS6 intake, motor mounts, f-body oil pan and windage tray / pickup. These items are available, but remain in high demand. You can pickup an LS1 steering shaft on e-bay so the headers clear for about $20. Gaskets and head bolts alone will probably run you around $350. I would also start checking availability on the ecm and wiring harness to match each of your options.

LS6 Cam is new. Going for a Typhoon or FAST Intake but I haven't decided upon the throttle body size. If it's the 5.3L then 78mm / 85mm should be enough? I forgot about head bolts/gaskets because the shop was providing that if I went with his motor / heads. Even if I came out of pocket, I'm working with around $11k and change to spare even if it exceeds that, these swaps typically don't go over $5 or $6k on... so I'm not worried about things piling up. For the heads, just curious - on the 5.3L how much of a gain would I see? ECM the shop is providing from a donor Z28. Wiring harness is likely coming from Painless. ECM I get free.

I like option 2 the best,the weight penalty is 80lbs not a big deal overall.

I'm beginning to lean more toward Option 2 as well as it seems the most bang for the buck.

[mrhobbz]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

Fuel Pump - Racetronix $150 save yourself $100 and grab a walbro 255 imo.

Yea, I have all the other parts already accounted for, that's why the prices only say for motor, btw I thought the steering rack for the LS1 and V6 between 98 and 02 are the same, there's no difference IIRC it's only 93 - 97 that uses the different rack to clear the headers??? Even if they are different, that won't hurt the budget.

I'm fairly certain they're different, before i decided to go the SBC route i believe it was hawks that told me the steering rack would need to go bye bye.

[bigbrian442]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

If your interested in a stock F body LS1 oil pan with the matching wind-age tray and pick up for less than the $275 you factored in above let me know. I can provide pictures of if you want.

[bigairboarder44]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

btw I thought the steering rack for the LS1 and V6 between 98 and 02 are the same, there's no difference IIRC it's only 93 - 97 that uses the different rack to clear the headers??? Even if they are different, that won't hurt the budget.

i think they are different, i've been searching a lot on 'tech and a few people have said that they're different. i'll find the threads if you want me to.

[ssms5411]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

The 93-97 are the same size as 98-02 but their 16:9.1 and 98+ are 14:4.1 and the 93-97 is a rag joint coupler and 98-02 is a intermediate coupler that will not go bad like the rag joint style coupler. But all the R&P are the same size I swapped in a 02' R&P in my 96' Camaro and got rid of my rag joint style coupler for a newer 98+ coupler.

[Watazz]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

Cars with turbo setups have the potential for an unlimited amount of hp. If you are worried about engine bay heat you could always go with a rear mount setup. I think 370 at the crank with a good rear mount setup is more than acheivable. Meth would probably not be necessary. Probably alot cheaper too.

[pace2006]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

Yea, I have all the other parts already accounted for, that's why the prices only say for motor, btw I thought the steering rack for the LS1 and V6 between 98 and 02 are the same, there's no difference IIRC it's only 93 - 97 that uses the different rack to clear the headers??? Even if they are different, that won't hurt the budget.

They made different steering racks between the V6 and LS1 from 98-02. If your car is not a Y87, you'll need to get an LS1 steering rack. The output nub angle on the steering rack and steering ratios are different between V6 and V8s because of the location of the LS1 alternator, and there are even differing racks between 98-99 and 00-02 LS1 years, most likely due the changing use and configuration of the EGR and AIR pumps. Either way, you'll need to get an LS1/Y87 steering rack and coupler.

[ssms5411]

Re: Preparing for Motor Swap - Need Input...

If you went turbo route even FFH's or under K with tub. K member at 7 PSI people have dynoed 320 WRHP and with a good intercooler you intake temps might be 20-40 degrees over ambient so if it is 115 degrees and with the hot pavement 130 degress you'll only be 150-170 degrees at WOT with the turbo and the methanol you can set it up so it comes on a a certain PSI like 4 PSI to WOT which would cool it down even more, so heat wouldn't be too bad. They make heat covers for the hot side to reduce underhood temps and burning wires. Then you could have a electric boost controller, then you could turn up the boost to 10-12 PSI when it cools down and with the right setup dyno 400-450 WRHP. My methanol kit is in the back trunk space comes with a 1.5 gallon tank with the progressive controller and pump mounted to it(Coolingmist setup), it sits right next to my battery box. To give some extra weight to the rear. I'm still doing a custom fan shroud setup with some 12" puller high flowing fans and also a 10" fan pushing on the tranny cooler and will mount another 10" pusher fan on the other side for more cooling. I also have a 3 core alm. radiator and run a 21-25 PSI radiator cap. A fan switch is also very good and my SS hood is vented to run air into the engine, it hit 87 degrees here yesterday and after stop and go in traffic with the stock fans its only got up to 190 degrees then started to drop back down to 180. With a free flowing exhaust and DP , I think my temps should stay under 200 degrees , even on the 120 degree days here. I still could of went with the LS2 option with a tub. K and headers and added it to my Hptuners(for about 11,000 total). But I do like the idea of the turbo( GT35R watercooled) since my engine is buillt already and if I can make 450 WRHP( in winter) and 320WRHP summer) on a 2900LB car it will be outstanding. So its all up to what you want.