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  • Expert opinions - HP...

    Ok, I don't usually do this, but I'm kind of at a crossroads and need a little more info before I decide which way to go. I'm going to post this on a few forums, and will be calling some builders, so don't worry that your opinions are going to make or break the deal :D

    First, the background: I bought my '02 Camaro 3.8 expressly for the purpose of building it into an SCCA road race car, to run in the Improved Touring "R" class (ITR). This class allows for mildly modified street cars, and uses weight to help even out the competition. Since the Camaro is classed very light (2815 lbs w/driver), the only chance it really has of being competitive is if it can make the IT-prep estimated HP (or preferable a little more). The estimate the SCCA used to classify the car in ITR was 250 HP at the flywheel, based on the following allowed modifications:

    * Air intake is open, up to the throttle body - but must come from within the engine compartment (or from the stock location, if that is outside the engine compartment). No ram air, hood scoops, etc, unless stock.
    * Exhaust is open, & all emissions equipment can go.
    * Engine management is open, but must use stock MAF sensor.
    * Stock flywheel must be used, but can be resurfaced.
    * Pulleys are open.
    * Engine may be bored up to .040 over & balanced/bluprinted. Compression may be bumped by one-half point. Heads may be shaved, no porting/polishing allowed.
    * Ignition system components are open, but must be of same type as stock.
    * Everything else about the engine must be stock.

    So, the question for the experts is, given the above parameters, can the 3.8 make 250 HP at the flywheel (about 205 at the wheels)? Please, only answer if you have real hands-on experience with this engine, I can read the forums if I want to access the virtual knowledge base.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Re: Expert opinions - HP...

    so no cam or anything allowed? yea your going to really struggle hitting 205rwhp then as our cars dyno 150-175rwhp stock and intake exhaust are not going to net you that much. Nor combining with tuning. Maybe an engine builder will have some secrets that aren't out there to squeeze some more out of the engine, but 205 with bolt ons will be hard to come by

    Plus you are going to have to gut the car to get to 2815 w/ driver, that is super light for these

    going to depend on suspension setup and driving skill.

    gears
    aluminum driveshaft
    headers
    exhaust
    intake
    suspension goodies
    fully gutted
    light wheels and good set of rubber
    tuning
    seat time
    http://www.bowtiev6.com/

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    • #3
      Re: Expert opinions - HP...

      i think its possible, a .040 overbore will pick you up about 5ci, you can bump the compression up to 9.9:1, run high octane.

      i know that engine parts must be stock, but im wondering if you could do things like bypass the balancer, that would be good for a few extra hp's

      you can get a tuner and bump the timing curves, from what i have heard there is still some spark retard when using high octane fuel.. so even using race ruel might get you some extra degrees.

      are you allowed to do anything to strengthen the engine, like using main studs instead of bolts? or rod bolts? these engines have a fairly large stroke, and arent rpm monsters, but strengthing up the rods and main caps a bit will help from crank walk, and take some the stresses off of the stock rod bolts so you can get a bit more worryless rpm's out of the engine, especially since your low end torque will be killed with an open exhaust

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      • #4
        Re: Expert opinions - HP...

        Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed for the purpose of obtaining any
        competitive advantage.

        ^I saw this in the list of rules pertaining to the engine. I dont think 250hp at the flywheel is gonna happen. No dry sump oil setup, no engine part coatings, you cant even use lighter materials in the engine. It doesnt even look like you can remove the a/c. You can underdrive the crank and use a electric water pump, but thats about it for horsepower besides intake, exhaust and tuning. It looks like your even stuck with 16" wheels. If you go for broke on the gears, weight reduction and suspension I think you could be fairly competitive though.

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        • #5
          Re: Expert opinions - HP...

          Yeah, engine internals must be stock, other than what you can shave off to "balance" the rotating assemblies. Some guys push that a little when balancing the crank, rods, and flywheel I'm sure - but you can only go so far before you start to compromise strength (or before it becomes obvious).

          The balancer can go. I've heard this can be dangerous with some engines, but I think if you do like the builder did on my 240SX (also an IT car) and balance the entire crank assembly with the pulley, flywheel & pressure plate in place it would probably be ok. And I'm guessing that the valve train is going to restrict the useful rpms on this engine, so I'm not too worried about strength. If it's anything like that truck motor in the Nissan, it's probably going to quit making power at 5500-5800.

          And yes, the a/c and all associated components can go, but water pumps must be stock; techsan I think you were looking at the section the starts "Alternate water pump,..." that made you think electric pumps were legal, but it actually goes on to say "water pump, alternator, power steering pump, and crankshaft pulleys...may be used".

          97rs, I am almost certain the car won't make it to 2815, that's the main reason I'm concerned about making the hp numbers. I took it over the scales at Summit Point last year, and after subtracting for me and the little bit of stuff I had in the car I figured the car weighs right at 3250 (including spare tire, jack, & 1/2 tank of fuel). If you consider 300 lbs for driver & roll cage, that means the car would have to be around 2525 before the cage goes in. That's over 700 lbs - I can see 450-500, but 700??? I doubt it.

          Keep in mind too guys, the number they use are based on a full-tilt, 100% build; basically assuming the eingine will go to a pro builder, and get plenty of dyno time. Or in other terms...lots of $$$$. I'm still torn between my heart, which wants to race this car in the worst way, and my head, which is saying "this could end up being a really expensive rolling chicane". The fact that nobody has built one of these for this class is also an enticement.

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          • #6
            Re: Expert opinions - HP...

            any build becomes a money pit, if you are afraid of spending money you are in the wrong hobby. lol
            http://www.bowtiev6.com/

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            • #7
              Re: Expert opinions - HP...

              It's never cheap. However, there are some tricks.

              Get the heads decked, that will bump compression
              Lightweight valvetrain - titanium retainers?
              Lightweight rocker arms - different ratio
              Headers
              Lid
              Stock style ram air hood - seal the airbox to the hood
              Gut it - it's the only way to get competitive
              Aluminum suspension components - LCA's, Panhard bar, QA1 shocks
              Lightweight K-member, A-arms, Torque Arm
              Hidden nitrous kit for the straights...... ;)
              <a href=\"http://www.fullthrottlev6.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.fullthrottlev6.com</a><br /><a href=\"http://www.chitownracing.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.chitownracing.com</a>

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              • #8
                Re: Expert opinions - HP...

                Originally posted by 97rs4life View Post
                any build becomes a money pit, if you are afraid of spending money you are in the wrong hobby. lol
                That's so true - it's that old saying..."It's easy to make a small fortune in racing; just start with a large fortune". :D

                I don't mind spending the money if the payback will be there (in this case, a competitive car), I just hate the idea of spending $12k-$15k on a car that will be a dog from the get go.

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                • #9
                  Re: Expert opinions - HP...

                  Originally posted by EarlR View Post
                  That's so true - it's that old saying..."It's easy to make a small fortune in racing; just start with a large fortune". :D

                  I don't mind spending the money if the payback will be there (in this case, a competitive car), I just hate the idea of spending $12k-$15k on a car that will be a dog from the get go.
                  12-15k in addition to the purchase of the car??

                  bird of prey has some good tips tho --- lighten the load every way possible, gear it up as high (or low really) as possible, and bolt-ons you can upgrade and you may have a competitive 6banger.

                  or just drop in an ls1 like he did and make nasty power ;)
                  pacesetters|full 3" borla exhaust|3" stainless e-cutout|slp cai & ram intake|c/f whisper lid|tbs|eibach|kyb|stb|sfc's|adj.lca's & phb|slp fan|b&m t5|180*|z06 17x9.5|8000k hids|hptuners|d/s rotors


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                  gone in body, but not in spirit

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