Namrepus28 Engine Top End Re-Build Thread

[Namrepus28]

Alright, so here goes;

So I had a thread over at the pretty much defunct FTV6 but I had to remove it due to privacy concerns in my personal life. Nothing major, I just had a lot of information in there that I was uncomfortable broadcasting out onto the internet.

I plan to re-vitalize it (and find a new photo hosting platform I like that won't disappear (FQuick) or start fleecing people (Photobucket)) both there, and create a mirror of it here.

For now, I want to focus more specifically on my top end engine rebuild as well as get some advice from forum members.

I started to take my engine apart after I broke off the screws on my Idle Air Control valve. Top tip: the engine doesn't run so well with it out of position (like, at all without stalling) and I figured it would be prudent to install an intake set I had sitting on the shelf for the last 10+ years.

I currently have the upper and lower intake manifolds off of the car (those of your who have done this know how much work is involved and how many other components need to be removed in the process) and am currently filling up a box of parts. I had just planned to replace the gaskets and re-install the manifolds, but it has turned into a big refresh project based on how dirty everything was once I got in there.

I'm pretty well along with having everything I need for the manifolds and re-assembly, so now it the time to start thinking about the heads. (and possibly timing chain and camshaft, but I haven't made a decision on those yet).

Does anyone have any recommendations? I wouldn't mind feedback in terms of head gaskets, rockers, push-rods, lifters, and valve-springs. Also, if you think a specific shop would do a great build for heads, I wouldn't mind your input. I know a fair bit about cars and how everything goes together but I am no expert on the specifics by any means.

Thanks!

[ssms5411]

First , do you have any plans modding it in the future? If not just do 90lb springs some retainers and locks. Keep the rockers, comp 5/16 stock 7.05 pushrods. If freshing up everything might as well do lifters which LS7s will fit for a nice replacement, ZZPERFORMANCE should have what you need.

[mdiesel]

it all depends on what your looking for from the car. if you're staying NA and just looking for a fun street performer, your best bet for the money with heads is to get a remanufactured set from allied motorparts on Ebay. they sell a pair of 4781 castings that are cleaned, crack checked, 3 angle valve job with all new stock springs for $250 . you can buy 90 lb springs, manly retainers, viton seals for less than $200. take the heads apart, port match the intake openings, and high polish the exhaust runners yourself and have a good set of heads for less than $500 bucks. Most of the heads you see for sale from intense, zzp, milzy and ssm are built for high rpm applications and really only perform best with forced induction.. the short rods in our motors don't allow our engines to breath well at high rpms NA, so if your building a street car that will rarely see the high side of 5800 rpms theres no demand from the engine for super high flowing heads that cost an arm and a leg.. on the subject of Cam again it comes down to what you want the car to do... a big numbers cam is gonna give you great power on the track, but you might be disappointed in its performance on the street... for a street performer I wouldn't go over 212 @.05 duration, 512 lift and id stick with a 110 lsa on a 108 cntr…

[LETZRIDE]

Alright, so here goes;

So I had a thread over at the pretty much defunct FTV6 but I had to remove it due to privacy concerns in my personal life. Nothing major, I just had a lot of information in there that I was uncomfortable broadcasting out onto the internet.

I plan to re-vitalize it (and find a new photo hosting platform I like that won't disappear (FQuick) or start fleecing people (Photobucket)) both there, and create a mirror of it here.

For now, I want to focus more specifically on my top end engine rebuild as well as get some advice from forum members.

I started to take my engine apart after I broke off the screws on my Idle Air Control valve. Top tip: the engine doesn't run so well with it out of position (like, at all without stalling) and I figured it would be prudent to install an intake set I had sitting on the shelf for the last 10+ years.

I currently have the upper and lower intake manifolds off of the car (those of your who have done this know how much work is involved and how many other components need to be removed in the process) and am currently filling up a box of parts. I had just planned to replace the gaskets and re-install the manifolds, but it has turned into a big refresh project based on how dirty everything was once I got in there.

I'm pretty well along with having everything I need for the manifolds and re-assembly, so now it the time to start thinking about the heads. (and possibly timing chain and camshaft, but I haven't made a decision on those yet).

Does anyone have any recommendations? I wouldn't mind feedback in terms of head gaskets, rockers, push-rods, lifters, and valve-springs. Also, if you think a specific shop would do a great build for heads, I wouldn't mind your input. I know a fair bit about cars and how everything goes together but I am no expert on the specifics by any means.

Thanks!

If you go with MLS gaskets, make sure you drill out the rivet holding them together (make sure they stay in the same order) and wipe them down with a paper towel before copper spraying both sides before assembling / installing the.

For head work you will want to base that on what cam you go with - especially when it comes to springs and the rates you will get.

For the timing chain - again, you'll want to base that on your cam. Heavier duty cam will require a double roller timing chain. If doing that you will want to have the sprocket on the timing chain remachined to have the right chamfer angle as that is the cause of why the double timing chains have failed. The chamfer is off which overloads the first chain.

What is your main goal for your build? Do you have an ETA you want to hit at the track to measure your quickness level or a specific Horsepower goal you want to meet?

[LETZRIDE]

Also - make sure you take advantage of rock auto our sponsor and the discount code they provide. Everything is jacked up pricing wise in the country you live in lol.

[Namrepus28]

Also - make sure you take advantage of rock auto our sponsor and the discount code they provide. Everything is jacked up pricing wise in the country you live in lol.

Don't you and I know it. Lol.

I've put in more orders through RockAuto than I care to admit and I'm sure more are on the way soon.

[Namrepus28]

First , do you have any plans modding it in the future? If not just do 90lb springs some retainers and locks. Keep the rockers, comp 5/16 stock 7.05 pushrods. If freshing up everything might as well do lifters which LS7s will fit for a nice replacement, ZZPERFORMANCE should have what you need.

Sorry everyone, I realized I didn't specify what I was planning overall. I want to stay N/A and basically just make a superior version of the stock engine. More power and torque within reason in terms of top end upgrades, etc.

Thanks for the tip about staying with stock rockers. I've seen a few people say that they should be fine with them if the mods are on the lighter side. Always good to have multiple sources re-iterate the same advice. Makes me more comfortable with ignoring the "urge" to upgrade "all the things."

Thanks!

[Namrepus28]

it all depends on what your looking for from the car. if you're staying NA and just looking for a fun street performer, your best bet for the money with heads is to get a remanufactured set from allied motorparts on Ebay. they sell a pair of 4781 castings that are cleaned, crack checked, 3 angle valve job with all new stock springs for $250 . you can buy 90 lb springs, manly retainers, viton seals for less than $200. take the heads apart, port match the intake openings, and high polish the exhaust runners yourself and have a good set of heads for less than $500 bucks. Most of the heads you see for sale from intense, zzp, milzy and ssm are built for high rpm applications and really only perform best with forced induction.. the short rods in our motors don't allow our engines to breath well at high rpms NA, so if your building a street car that will rarely see the high side of 5800 rpms theres no demand from the engine for super high flowing heads that cost an arm and a leg.. on the subject of Cam again it comes down to what you want the car to do... a big numbers cam is gonna give you great power on the track, but you might be disappointed in its performance on the street... for a street performer I wouldn't go over 212 @.05 duration, 512 lift and id stick with a 110 lsa on a 108 cntr…

THAT is some valuable info. Thank you! I've been looking at all the head options online that CAN be used for N/A applications but it's good to hear that they don't really need to be. I'll look into allied. I just want to make the engine better/more efficient and enjoy any gains that come from the effort. I've got my Bonneville for any supercharged shenanigans I want to get up to. The Camaro is staying a 3.8L N/A unless I come into money unexpectedly and pay someone to swap in an LS1. But the odds of that are very low. Plus I'm learning all sorts of fun stuff about the V6 despite all my time owning one.

[Namrepus28]

If you go with MLS gaskets, make sure you drill out the rivet holding them together (make sure they stay in the same order) and wipe them down with a paper towel before copper spraying both sides before assembling / installing the.

For head work you will want to base that on what cam you go with - especially when it comes to springs and the rates you will get.

For the timing chain - again, you'll want to base that on your cam. Heavier duty cam will require a double roller timing chain. If doing that you will want to have the sprocket on the timing chain remachined to have the right chamfer angle as that is the cause of why the double timing chains have failed. The chamfer is off which overloads the first chain.

What is your main goal for your build? Do you have an ETA you want to hit at the track to measure your quickness level or a specific Horsepower goal you want to meet?

Thanks for the tip on the MLS gaskets. That's the kind of stuff that you don't know unless someone with experience tells you.

Good to know about the cause of failure for the double rollers. If I go with a milder cam, will a fresh single roller set-up handle the job without an issue? I certainly have no plans to remove the balance shaft.

Just looking for general improvements in engine efficiency and power. No plans to go to the track, just to have more fun while out and about. If I can hit 250hp at the crank that'd be pretty cool, but it's all going to be an improvement regardless considering how many km's were on this thing before I started dismantling it.

[Namrepus28]

Additional info I've neglected to mention:

Mods:

* A/C compressor deleted (at least for the foreseeable future. I'm running a pulley in it's place.
* Clear Image Automotive headers
* SLP Cold Air Intake
* Aluminum driveshaft
* Magnaflow Hi-Flow Cat
* Stock Z28 Cat-Back exhaust
* Some suspension stuff, but that's not terribly relevant to this thread

Parts in the garage:

* Fuddle Torque Converter. I think it's a 4000 Stall. I know the company had a very high failure rate on their products and went out of business so I'm not sure I ever want to chance using this.
* Corvette Servo
* Transmission Cooler kit (minus the lines)
* Z28 rear end with Zexel Torson limited slip, 3:42 gears, and disc brakes.

[ssms5411]

You’ll also going to need to tune it, even staying N/A. So you should look into a wideband O2 and Hptuners.

[Namrepus28]

You’ll also going to need to tune it, even staying N/A. So you should look into a wideband O2 and Hptuners.

I guess I should add "97 PCM" to my parts in the garage list...so I'm part way there.

Yeah, there aren't many places left that will do a mail order tune for these 3800 F-Bodies. HP Tuners always seemed like the smarter choice, I just know nothing about tuning.

Are there any wideband O2 set-ups that are better/worse than others?

[ssms5411]

I wouldn’t do a mail order tune, yes if you have a 96’ you’ll need a 97’ pcm. Tunning isn’t that bad , Hptuners makes it easier than you think. Innovative, Aem, Plx are good for widebands. I’ve had my Plx since 2002. Still going strong.

[LETZRIDE]

I guess I should add "97 PCM" to my parts in the garage list...so I'm part way there.

Yeah, there aren't many places left that will do a mail order tune for these 3800 F-Bodies. HP Tuners always seemed like the smarter choice, I just know nothing about tuning.

Are there any wideband O2 set-ups that are better/worse than others?

Sorry I was away up north so slow to answer.

I would stay away from innovate - I had nothing but problems with the. My AEM has been headache free since I installed it in my v6 years ago.

As far as the single roller, it depends on the cam. The manufacturer should tell you what is recommended. I will say you mine as well go with the larger of the cam as once you install it you will wish you did - especially if you have a stall converter. You don't want your stall to kick in and make the car fall flat on it's face because it isn't breathing up top.

Remember, the stall is typically matched to the cam.

I did like my abbott ARH cam before I went bigger FWIW.

I haven't heard of fuddle making a stall for the 3800 cars. I had mine from TCI, my LS1 is a Yank converter which seems to hit harder than my TCI one - granted they were behind 2 different motors.

[Namrepus28]

So there hasn't been much movement on this in over a year, as I dedicated most of my time last summer to replacing most of the suspension and brake parts on my 03 Bonneville SSEi. And most of that went pretty well actually, but it's not an F-body so I digress.

As far as the Camaro goes, I was thinking of throwing in the towel at one point and re-building it with stock components. I spoke to my best friend and he asked me a good therapist question: "What do you WANT to do with it?"

And so, I made an order on Black Friday from ZZP that finally shipped out yesterday and is on its way. I also ordered a couple of things from Hawks Motor Sports. Now these are just partial orders, but here's what I got:

Hawks:

Sphon tubular tunnel brace - I'll get it installed when the car is back outside in the nicer weather and I can jack it up.
EGR Block Off Plates - I removed my EGR (which broke apart in my hands, lol.) and plan to program it out of my PCM before everything is back together. The plates look nice, but the one bolt is too big for the block off section on my headers, so I'll have to tap that hole to make it fit.
Reproduction gas pedal and brake pedal cover - They were on sale and I just wanted to freshen up the old worn ones.
Chevy Bumper Emblem - The one in the middle of the bumper that is hidden by the license plate here in Ontario. I have a new bumper to put on at some point and will need to replace the emblem once the body work is done.

ZZP:

Some parts for the Bonneville's Supercharger...
AND
1.65 Ratio Rocker Arms
ZZP Lifters (essentially LS7 lifters with slight modifications as I understand it)
ZZP Head Studs (essentially ARP head studs as I understand it)
ZZP Billet Oil Cap (just because)

So my plan is to supplement these valve train parts with a pair of reconditioned heads from ZZP in the future (funds permitting) that have #90 springs, retainers, valves already installed.

Then toss in some lightweight push rods from Intense Racing, as well as a couple odds and ends.

And once all that is buttoned up with new valve cover gaskets/grommets (Already in hand) and painted valve covers, move onto acquiring a cam (probably ZZP GT1) and a new timing chain (probably single Cloyes or Rollmaster, but we'll see).

My focus is on the engine at the moment, but once these stages are completed, it'll be looking into getting a stall converter and a wideband O2.

I'm sure there will be many more parts and headaches along the way, but it's a start for now. My "Mild Improvements" build is on the move!