Dropping a perverbial nuke on the sport compact world.... - FirebirdV6.com/CamaroV6.com Message Board

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  • Dropping a perverbial nuke on the sport compact world....

    Hey guys. Just wanted to give a shout and ask for some advice. Before any of you roll your eyes, please be advised I've modified several vehicles and raced some off the wall stuff since I was a kid. Odd swaps into light cars are a lot of fun [img]smile.gif[/img] . Although this vehicle is FWD, it has something very special in it I need your help with. I'm in the process of stripping the car to approximately 2000lbs. I'm going to beat imports at their own game [img]smile.gif[/img] . Read on...

    I picked up a dumpy little FWD Ciera wagon from a friend to drive around while my WRX was being built. It was a steal for 200 bucks, and she gets me places reliably while getting 30mpg. That's where the daily commuter aspect of this thing ends...

    This 84 Cutlass Ciera (NOT-numbers matching, BTW.)wagon has what I have verified to be a turbo Buick block in it. The only difference is an HEI. I think it is what many of you refer to as a "Type I" 3800v6 (85-88 model years?). It is a #2552 block, 20 bolt pan, and #8445 cylinder heads. (That should turn heads for those of you in the know...) She also has the "red dot" Aluminum PFI manifold. I about **** my pants when I lifted the hood on her the first time. That engine in this innocent looking FWD chassis??? Imagine the possibilities...

    So, the wagon looks like good cheap fun. Several hi-po parts are available for it. But, the help I need from here concerns a factory supercharger on type 1 3.8's. Basically, it's the blower, the brackets, the ECU, and injectors for it I'm trying to find. It's a few factory basics, really. There's plenty of room under the hood for all of it. The body is being worked over at the moment. I'm turning it into a panel wagon respectful of the old 40's and 50's panel wagons/trucks. The bodywork is all a subtle attempt to drop massive amounts of vehicle weight to improve speed and reliability [img]smile.gif[/img] . (Soon....) Trim is removed. The weight of the glass is gone, seats are yanked, heavy interior parts are gone, too. An airbag suspension is also on the books.

    Let 'em fly ladies gentlemen! I'm a stubborn bastard who enjoys challenges [img]smile.gif[/img] A 3.8 litre engine, boosted or not, in a 2000lb FWD chassis is a recipe for a real *** kicker.
    Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

  • #2
    interesting.. but i would not call this advance tech..

    that and i dont know a whole lot about the older 3.8's.. nor is this site really geared twards them.. may want to seek out a better site..

    I would help you out.. but I really have no idea.. the motors might was well be compleatly different beyond the fact that they have the same displacement..

    Comment


    • #3
      Seemed worth a shot anyway. I know the later 3.8 parts won't swap on to it. I can change the timing chain cover and switch do a C3I ignition. that'd be about it electronics-wise. The cam can be swapped, and there's good meat in the heads for porting. I think this might even do alright if left n/a in a lighter car. Anyone have any info on older 3800 ecu's and modifying them?
      Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

      Comment


      • #4
        I was hoping some port matching, a cam change, full exhaust, and an ecu mod might get me near or over 200hp. I can GET those done while trying to find a blower for it.
        Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

        Comment


        • #5
          well if you really want some power out of that thing i would suggest you look at some grand national parts (they have gotten over 1000hp out of that motor). look into the turbocharger off that car and see if you can make it fit. from there you can go crazy with the upgrades. but just for your info this might get moved to the forced induction portion of the site.
          2001 Arctic White Firebird With Black Drop Top<br /><br />3:42 Gears<br />Zexel LSD<br />BMR upper A-Arms<br />Trans Am exhaust with 3\" I-pipe and cutout<br />Modified intake<br />Mecham Hood<br />Trans Go shift kit<br />Making rear control arms and panhard

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          • #6
            Okay...according to the (bench racer...) math, with just 250hp, I should be able to crack a low 12 at 2300lbs. I KNOW I can get this done while n/a. Not really needing forced induction to pull it off is kinda cool [img]smile.gif[/img] . The question is, can I get it done on 8:1 compression? The cam, rocker arms, intake, ignition, P&P and ECU ought to do that. Stock rating is 125hp and 190ft/lbs. There's no FWD GM transaxle capable of handling 1,000hp without serious mods. An LSD diff and upgraded axles should do her well. I've already got an upgraded 1800 stall convertor.
            Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

            Comment


            • #7
              you will never get there with that abount of power. with that logic some of our guys should be in the 11's and they most deffinately are not. 300hp is good to get into the low 12's and you could get close to that N/A but Forced Induction or spray is the only way to get there with a 3800v6. But if you really want to try out the 3800 i'll will trade you your LT1 for my v6.
              2001 Arctic White Firebird With Black Drop Top<br /><br />3:42 Gears<br />Zexel LSD<br />BMR upper A-Arms<br />Trans Am exhaust with 3\" I-pipe and cutout<br />Modified intake<br />Mecham Hood<br />Trans Go shift kit<br />Making rear control arms and panhard

              Comment


              • #8
                here this is a good link to show you what i mean. this is going on right now in the Forced induction forum. look at the horse power and look at the times people project for it.
                http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=4&t=001442
                i dont mean to put your idea down but you need a reallity check. if all you needed was 250hp then gtp's would come factory in the 12's.
                2001 Arctic White Firebird With Black Drop Top<br /><br />3:42 Gears<br />Zexel LSD<br />BMR upper A-Arms<br />Trans Am exhaust with 3\" I-pipe and cutout<br />Modified intake<br />Mecham Hood<br />Trans Go shift kit<br />Making rear control arms and panhard

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by T-Punk:
                  here this is a good link to show you what i mean. this is going on right now in the Forced induction forum. look at the horse power and look at the times people project for it.
                  http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=4&t=001442
                  i dont mean to put your idea down but you need a reallity check. if all you needed was 250hp then gtp's would come factory in the 12's.
                  Dude, he's talking about 250hp in a 2000lb car.

                  Huge difference between a ~3500lb car (ie GTP), and a ~2000 lb car. HUGE.
                  AIM: escalier deverre<br />\'02 Pearl Blue Metallic RSX-S (daily driver)<br />\'98 Black Firebird<br />98 V6 turbocharged to 02 LS1 swap<br />\'02 LS1/4L60E<br />LS6 Block, LS6 Intake Manifold, Thunder Racing 215/220 .600/.523/115 Cam, Titanium Retainers, Crane Double Valve Springs, 125 shot NX Wet Kit w/ NOS brand Purge, True Dual \"H\" Pipe w/ two chambers and dumps, 17x11(rear) and 17x9.5(front) Black Powdercoated ZR1 Replicas on 315 and 275 BFGoodrich Comp T/A\'s (Street)/ET Drags/Skinnies on Weldlites(Track), 3.42/LSD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T-Punk:
                    here this is a good link to show you what i mean. this is going on right now in the Forced induction forum. look at the horse power and look at the times people project for it.
                    http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=4&t=001442
                    i dont mean to put your idea down but you need a reallity check. if all you needed was 250hp then gtp's would come factory in the 12's.
                    He has a series 1 engine and is cutting the car to 2300 lbs.. 250HP and 2,300lbs = high 12's if he cuts it to under 2000 he'll be low 12's to high 11's
                    2000 Firebird. Whisper Lid, True duals, TSP mail order tune, Built Tranny , TCI 2800 stall verter, B&M tranny cooler, Eaton LSD, 3.42 gears. Current best ET. 15.232 89.09 MPH 2.175 60ft on stock 3.42\'s and open diff.<a href=\"http://www.geocities.c

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Down boys...heel...It was a simple equation

                      ((5.825/desired E.T.) exp 3) X vehicle weight = desired HP for your given ET.

                      I pulled it out of a Corky Bell book....


                      At 2300lbs, it actually comes to 206-hp for 12's.(13.0 is almost a 12.99, 12.0 is close to an 11.99 and so on...for 11's I need about 263hp...ASSUMING good traction at that. That little bit of fudging is the only thing working in your favor other than big boost/cubes or a light car.

                      At 3800lbs (Camaro w/ driver?) you need 430hp.
                      (Sound right according to what you read here?)

                      At 2000lbs it needs only 228hp. 23-2500lbs seems to be a realistic goal for it with driver and fuel. So, I'd need closer to 275hp for 11's. My goal is to go fast. The numbers will come as a result of the work. Everything until then is just speculation. What I'm doing to the suspension is going to be a big key to lower ET's. Power is not much of a concern for the engine...and just as I thought, 11's on 91 octane in a dump 84 FWD wagon would piss a lot of people off...

                      BTW...I'm involved in an effort to supercharge Subarus...that's as vague and deceptive as I can put it :D . So far on 6psi out of a centry unit w/ a WAIC, it stomped WRX's senseless on a stock 2.5 liter boxer engine.

                      Anyway. I think a large reason for not getting the ET's down in Sport compact racing is the inherent disadvantage of FWD. Trap speeds are there to support HP claims...but E.T's are a better yardstick for traction and chassis setup. That's why WRX's and mitsu's (AWD) can run through the traps at 102mph at near 13.0. For most RWD'ers, 100mph is a good 13/14 second timeslip....not 13/12 like a Rex. Ever wonder how a FWD all motor car run's 9's? It only needs 276hp in a 1400lb car!

                      ....at this point, I'm either completely full of it, or know what I'm doing [img]smile.gif[/img] . Flame onward, fellows, in good tradition of the internet!
                      Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        www.turbobuick.com

                        www.gnttype.org

                        www.turbobuicks.com

                        https://www.kirbanperformance.com/index_turboregal.htm

                        www.cottonsperformance.com

                        All of these will have better info for that engine than this site.

                        Good luck.
                        1997 GTP(13.3@104)-Sold<br />1999 Trans Am M6

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                        • #13
                          Thank you :D . Notes taken....
                          Your wife will hate your car when I\'m done.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            camaro w/ drive = 3800pds??? must be a fat *** driver...
                            !! Drive it like you stole it !!<br /><br />I believe forgiving them is gods function, our job is to arrange the meeting <br /><br /> <a href=\"http://www.azclubgp.com/garage.php?mode=viewgarage&u=202\" target=\"_blank\">2002 GTP 40th Anniversary Edition Sedan</a> <br />-------------<br />Mods:<br />3.4\" Pulley<br />rigged K&N Filter<br />14.3 et

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Let me try to figure this out. You say that you have a Turbo Buick block in a front wheel drive wagon. There were no Turbo Buick blocks made for FWD. GM didn't make a tranny that could handle it until the 4t65eHD. So, is it a 3.8 or a 3800 Series I? If it's a 3800, forget about getting anywhere with that motor. Unless you find a supercharged series I. Even if you do, no aftermarket for that motor. The 3.8 FWD is a 2 bolt block and the LC2 was a 4-bolt. Do you have any pictures of this car? I'd like to see this. If you want to know something about the FWD 3.8 or 3800 series I or II, go to www.lesabret.com :rolleyes: [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

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