3800 V6 longevity

[Tim Gregerson]

Gentle Men & Women,

This group seems the most likely to know the motor I have/use "in depth," so here goes. I am writing this for two reasons.

1. My own vehicle is based on the GM V6 platform running gear; and
2. My dad's old 1990 Buick Riviera has a problem - as told to my brother.

I will address reason 2 first.

Have any of you encountered a "weakness" or common problem in this engine stated as "spinning" the center cam bearing out of its bore...thus leaving the cam without support at that journal?!!

I suspect a mechanic trying to extract some extra change from my inexperienced brother by telling him this problem exists.

I drove the car 300+ miles (to my home for a repair) and can find no reason to pull the engine UNLESS this problem could actually exist and leave the motor running with no apprent symptom.

Please advise as to whether or not you have EVER seen such a problem with this motor. I have built and raced many V8 motors in my youth and have never heard of such a problem; but this motor is new to me - in terms of dismantling and rebuilding.

This relates heavily to topic 1 - my car, which I intend to put back on the streets next year. I plan to acquire the "baddest" V6 (any suggestions there) I can find through dismantlers to replace the current engine which is a Chevy Citation X11 V6 from the early 1980s. It is currently backed by an automatic trans which I am hoping to also upgrade with the newer OverDrive version which should be with the motor I choose.

If I use all of the associated electronics and build a special exhaust system for my application to meet all of the emmisions requirements in my state (CA) do any of you know of any major reasons I cannot make such a "change" with relative ease?

Thank you one and all. I hope my lack of an F-body car does not negate you interest in helping a V6 affectionato!

tim@cpmg.com

[AZ3.8Camaro]

Tim,
While I haven't heard of a problem with the 3800 losing the center cam bearings, it has happened to me.

I was doing a cam swap, and one of the two center cam bearings fell out. I managed to put it back in the hole, but it seemed like the hole was much to large, like it was over-bored.

As far as cam support goes, it is not really the issue here.

The main thing you would definately see with a spun cam bearing would be a drop in oil pressure
Your lifters would start to tick, etc.

The cam bearings have oil passages cut into them that have to be lined up perfectly to work. If the bearing has spun, it will either block the passage and cut oil to the rest of the block, lifters, etc, or it will fall out completely and not restrict oil flow, and the pressure will drop and similar results would ensue.

Any lifter noise? How's the oil pressure?

[malice10985]

For the mechanic to find a spun cam bearing, he would need the engine to be almost totally apart.

I have never heard of a spun cam bearing in the 3800 before, and I tore my 3800 to bits. I think you mechanic is BSing you.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally posted by AZ3.8Camaro:
Tim,
While I haven't heard of a problem with the 3800 losing the center cam bearings, it has happened to me.

I was doing a cam swap, and one of the two center cam bearings fell out. I managed to put it back in the hole, but it seemed like the hole was much to large, like it was over-bored.

As far as cam support goes, it is not really the issue here.

The main thing you would definately see with a spun cam bearing would be a drop in oil pressure
Your lifters would start to tick, etc.

The cam bearings have oil passages cut into them that have to be lined up perfectly to work. If the bearing has spun, it will either block the passage and cut oil to the rest of the block, lifters, etc, or it will fall out completely and not restrict oil flow, and the pressure will drop and similar results would ensue.

Any lifter noise? How's the oil pressure?

wonder if thats whats wrong with Shirls car

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

guys dont think the "#2" is a 3800 Series II motor i think hes talking about the 1st gen 3.8L

[Tim Gregerson]

AZ3.8Camaro,

Your point is well taken about oil pressure. Since I do not know the accuracy of the electronic gauges I can only say the oil pressure has always seemed low to me; but obviously not so low as to render the motor inoperable over the past 14 years.

I understand your point on teh alignment of the oil delivery holes etc..and Viper04af makes a point about this motor not being a Series II which may well be true.

My question still remains for many of this forum and that is "has anyone seen this malfunction in either the early or current V6 engine?

The other point made by 'malice' isthat the engine would have to be torn apart....the bearing is not just "spun" rather OUT of its joulnal and accessed in theory by taking the oil pan off the motor for inspection whereupon it was removed by the tech to present it to my brother.

I still think there was some smoke and mirrors for the technically inexperienced .... thus the reason I sought a group/body of evidence from folks such as yourselves whom I presumed had tested the very limits of this particular design.

Any more willing advisors on this topic?!!

I also asked for your opinions on using a late model V6 intact with tranny and all associated electronics for my personal car. I would do some modifications for my application; but essentially am looking for a strong performance motor in an exceptionally light-weight vehicle which I hope will perform without the need for major changes to factory-perfected specs. Given the power to weight ratio from the stock motor, I feel the car will be great fun without the need for major mods.

Any comments on this plan??

Thanks again, one and all.

Tim

[RallyRed 98]

if that citation is a 60* V6, there are tons of parts for the 3.4 and 3.1 liter motors. i'm guessing it came with a 2.8 or 3.1... a few guys on here have built some pretty speedy 3.4s with mostly drivetrain mods. i don't know if there is a suitable 3.4 FWD transmission available, though.

[Tim Gregerson]

RallyRed98,

My interest is not in teh Citaation engine....rather a new 2004+ or ?? 3800 Series II V6 which I am guessing (only) will fit with little difficulty in place of the Citation engine and drivetrain. What do you think? I appreciate your willingness to comment.

[2short]

I think you should get the Drivetrain out of a GTP, (supercharged 3.8) and retrofit that in there, have a supercharged FWD Citation that hauls ***.

Im not a fan of FWD but that would be pretty cool imo.

[Tim Gregerson]

Hey 2Short,

We are thinking alike but my car is not a Citation. It was simply created in the early 80s when that was one of the very few V6 platform car drivetrains available (X-11 model only 115 HP if I remember correctly).

The car is a very aerodynamic and lightweight (2200 lbs) replica of a 1969 McClaren M6B GT Coupe. Thus, I would expect the setup you are suggesting - and I am looking at seriously - should fall into place with little work.

Of course, I expect to use all of the electronics (computer) etc to make the setup nearly stock. With such a lightweight vehicle to push around, it should do very well.

Thanks for your input. I wish I could get a few of the experts that run thru this site to comment on my plan as well. Not that you are not such an expert; but I feel you may not be intimately familiar with some of the older cars (e.g. Citation X-11) since your profile shows you to be born after its production runs.

Thanks, Tim

[Guardsman]

Tim, as for the bearing problem....sounds like BS to me....you stated that you've built V8s before, the 3.8s use the same basic design for the cam journal and bearings, with the possible exception that the 3.8s have the balance shaft above the cam.....so, I would say that it sounds like BS.

As to the engine to use....it would depend on whether you have a 60* or 90* V6 in there now.....if it currently has a 60* V6, stick with that, simply because it would be simpler, and you may run into fitment problems otherwise....The new 3.4s are stout little motors, they now have splayed-valve aluminum heads, higher compression, etc. and GM Performance Parts sells stuff for them. However, if your car is a rear-wheel drive, you'd run into an issue there, as the engine would end up in the bay backwards if it was mated to a RWD tranny.

If it already has a 90*, then stick with the 3.8 Especially now that HP Tuner is available, you could do a whole lot with it, especially if the car is as light as you say it is. The 3.8 has a lot of potential, especially if you stick a better cam in it.

[Tim Gregerson]

Hey Guardsman,

Thanks for your comments. My car is the 60* not the "short V8" 90* and it is coupled to the entire drive train from its matching early Citation. It is my plan to dump it all in favor of the latest V6 technology (motor + transaxle).

On my dad's old car, I spoke with my brother who insists he saw the bearing presented to him by the mechanic - but again, it was after the fact (not wrapped around the cam or anything) in the pan.

Would that (center) cam journal even be visible from the bottom of the motor?

Thanks, Tim

P.S. Your car is what I used to build and race..and many of its predecessors too!