So swapping out the top end of a 3.4 to a 3400 is not easy...

[black34v6]

Well. I figured I didn't want this lost in the "question about 3.4L intakes" thread, so I decided to make a new post. Magnus, I hope you don't delete this, this is kind of important info for anyone that is trying to do this, and i dont consider this a "simple mod" anymore. I didn't in the first place, but it's taken on a whole new meaning.

FINALLY GOT THE ENGINE OUT -- its on a stand right now sitting in a garage next to the car. Everything except the heads (3.4L stock RWD) have been taken off, its down to the block, oil filter and water pump/crank pulley. Oh yea and I left the flywheel on too.

Anyhow, on to the "challenges" -- yes, challenges.

Challenge 1.: Upon removing the exhaust manifolds, I noticed that the bolts were larger, so I test fitted them. Yup, the stock bolts that hold the exhaust manifolds on are larger than the studs that are screwed into the Gen III Aluminum heads. No big deal I thought, I'll just use the studs, better for sealing anyway. So I test-fitted the stock 3.4L RWD exh. man. to the Aluminum heads. Oh crap was the result, the bolts are spaced FARTHER APART top to bottom (the exhaust port arrangement is EXACT to the RWD head, but the studs on the head/bolt holes on the exh. manifold are in the wrong locations) -- this will have to be taken to a shop to see if i can get this fixed. I'll keep everyone posted.

Upon comparing the two intakes (3.4 RWD & 3400 FWD) I got a closer look at the differences. WOW are the runners beefier. The runners on the 3400 intake look to be the same size as the TBI on the 5.0/5.7 from a 3rd gen f-body. Problem with this:

Challenge 2.: Upon closer inspecting the manifolds with a Tape Measure, the Intake setup from the 3400 is about 1.5-2" higher than the 3.4 RWD. might have to decrease the height by cutting off the top and welding on a flat plate of aluminum up there..not sure on this one, I'm gonna consult a friend who knows how to weld aluminum on how hard this would be. hes going to help me with my intake anyhow, so I'll just bring this up too. I'll keep you posted.

So thats how it stands so far. I'm going to try to take digital pictures tomorrow, and I'll see what I can do about putting up a website or something to that effect tomorrow night or Tuesday. I'll shoot comparison pics and stuff.

Anyhow. There's my status for what I found out today, just thought everyone would like to know the troubles I found in doing this swap before you went out and spent your hard earned cash without knowing all the problems. Like I said I'll keep everyone posted...

-R

[Shadly]

Wouldn't it be easier to add headers now? I mean, you could just weld in the holes on the steel flange and drill yourself new ones... or better yet, fabricate a new thicker flange. Just from running your numbers on Desktop Dyno, I'd go that route. ;)

The intake would have less flow if you decreased the height, wouldn't it? I'd use an aftermarket hood with ram-air. The increased hood height might be just enough and for the ram air system, it has a custom air lid designed for use with that hood. The FWD intake is angled the wrong way for use of a factory elbow, isn't it? Can't wait for pics.

[black34v6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shadly:
The intake would have less flow if you decreased the height, wouldn't it? I'd use an aftermarket hood with ram-air. The increased hood height might be just enough and for the ram air system, it has a custom air lid designed for use with that hood. The FWD intake is angled the wrong way for use of a factory elbow, isn't it? Can't wait for pics.<hr></blockquote>

That'd be great, IF it was the height of the hood in question. I'm speaking more of the fact that the cowl (under the dashboard/windshield) comes down about half an inch after it goes under the windshield, and the motor (if you havent looked lately) is 1/3 underneath that part of the car. so unless i notch the cowl/windshield (big pita) I might have to cut/modify the intake to work.

If this all goes well, and requires no machining, I'll produce a guide for it. If it requires a little machining, I might make a kit (modified parts included) that you can do to make this happen on your car (your = anyones).

as for the headers, well thats fine. headers woudl be good, but I want to see whats necessary to do this just as a modification by itself, rather than require parts. That is if it's not necessary.

-R

[Shadly]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Russell:


That'd be great, IF it was the height of the hood in question. I'm speaking more of the fact that the cowl (under the dashboard/windshield) comes down about half an inch after it goes under the windshield, and the motor (if you havent looked lately) is 1/3 underneath that part of the car. so unless i notch the cowl/windshield (big pita) I might have to cut/modify the intake to work.<hr></blockquote>Oh yeah, good point. You know, somebody on this board just did that. He might be able to offer some insight. I really can't remember who it was, I'm sure somebody will. It was the guy that replaced his 3.4 with a 3.8 and found out it was too tall for the engine compartment. Who the heck was that?

[zlightning]

How could the 3.8 be too tall when it was put in 95 1/2 -02?

[nova]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shadly:
Wouldn't it be easier to add headers now? I mean, you could just weld in the holes on the steel flange and drill yourself new ones... or better yet, fabricate a new thicker flange. Just from running your numbers on Desktop Dyno, I'd go that route. ;)
<hr></blockquote>

Seriously, how hard would it be to modify a set of headers for a 3400 Grand Am to work in an F-Body?

[black34v6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nova:


Seriously, how hard would it be to modify a set of headers for a 3400 Grand Am to work in an F-Body?<hr></blockquote>


really freakin hard. considering that the 3400 in the grand am sits sideways (longitudinally) -- as in between the wheels, with the tranny facing the drivers side, and the accy facing the passenger side, unlike the RWD that has the tranny facing the rear and the accy facing forward. the connection of such things is really difficult. besides. the REAL issue isnt the exhaust manifolds.

#2) i would like to know things i REQUIRE. currently a set of headers are not required to get all of this to work. im hoping a custom intake manifold isnt one of the requirements. that is the highest priority on my agenda right now.

-R

edit: The solution i have come up with (which would be required for headers as well) is to notch the bottom bolt hole, so its more of a slot, then i can bolt it up (the aluminum heads use studs and not bolts... [img]smile.gif[/img] )

anyway..ill keep everyone posted..i gotta get pics of all this stuff....

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Russell ]</p>

[Shadly]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zlightning:
How could the 3.8 be too tall when it was put in 95 1/2 -02?<hr></blockquote>
Different K-member. Russell is using a stock 3.4 block, though.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Russell:
i would like to know things i REQUIRE. currently a set of headers are not required to get all of this to work. im hoping a custom intake manifold isnt one of the requirements. that is the highest priority on my agenda right now<hr></blockquote>I was just thinking ease-factor. It's much easier to play with steel than cast iron, but if it's just a matter of notching a hole, then [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] .

Is dropping the whole engine an option? Like modified motor mounts or modified K-member? It would make the oil pan lower, but 1 1/2 inches shouldn't be a problem. Oooh, just thought of something. I don't have my car in front of me so I'm not sure how everything bolts up, but could you drop the K-member and trans cross member with longer bolts and spacers?

[black34v6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shadly:
I was just thinking ease-factor. It's much easier to play with steel than cast iron, but if it's just a matter of notching a hole, then [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] .

Is dropping the whole engine an option? Like modified motor mounts or modified K-member? It would make the oil pan lower, but 1 1/2 inches shouldn't be a problem. Oooh, just thought of something. I don't have my car in front of me so I'm not sure how everything bolts up, but could you drop the K-member and trans cross member with longer bolts and spacers?<hr></blockquote>

First off -- the ease factor. o yea i considered it. heheh. cant get the money for headers rite now cause its "not justified" (the words that were used)... as for dropping the k-member: here is the problem with that...the whole front suspension is attached to it. if i drop the k-member, im also dropping the front wheels, which would raise up the whole front end unless i got like lowered springs in front to bring it back to normal..

something id rather not deal with. there is a way to do this im sure. we'll just see how it all comes together.

[Backfire]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Russell:

... as for dropping the k-member: here is the problem with that...the whole front suspension is attached to it. if i drop the k-member, im also dropping the front wheels, which would raise up the whole front end unless i got like lowered springs in front to bring it back to normal.
<hr></blockquote>

Since the upper arm is bolted to the frame, wouldn't dropping the k-member cause more issues than just the height? The lower arm would shift, but the upper arm would stay in place. Same with the front shocks. The upper mount would stay put, but the lower mount would move with the arm. You would be altering geometry between the arms, and might also have some issues with binding.

[black34v6]

um..possible?

what it would do (as i think you stated) is #@$ with the suspension...

which i dont wanna do.

-R

[Shadly]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Backfire:


Since the upper arm is bolted to the frame, wouldn't dropping the k-member cause more issues than just the height? The lower arm would shift, but the upper arm would stay in place. Same with the front shocks. The upper mount would stay put, but the lower mount would move with the arm. You would be altering geometry between the arms, and might also have some issues with binding.<hr></blockquote>Dropping the k-member would cause the inner ends of the lower control arms to drop about 1 1/2 inches. The spring uses the shock as a mount, or in this case, a pivot. This would actually lower the car about a half inch. The potential suspension issues are the same as adding a lift kit to a truck. The suspension travel on our cars isn't great enough to actually cause camber wear. It's nothing an alignment can't cure. The big issue with this method wouldn't be the alignment, it would be bottoming out on large bumps and smacking the k-member/oilpan on the ground. Larger bumpstop would fix that.

[black34v6]

ok but still..all of a sudden you are into the suspension. and if i have to drop the k-member down and put washers between it and the car to give more space for the intake, that means that i also have to get lowering springs, so that the wheels sit closer to the fender, and even out the car, otherwise the front of the car will ride x inches higher (x = whatever amount i drop the k-member down)

this id rather not do. i would rather cut the cowl i think, and make room for it. besides..i dont have the resources to drop the k-member. the other option is to fab an intake..which would be like a last resort kind of thing, but might be a necessity. ill figure out what needs to happen when the engine comes back from the rebuilders and i put it back into the car.

-R

[Shadly]

Russell, You were planning on using an LT1 TB anyway, right? I foresee franken-intake! Is it the intake itself that sits too high or the heads that raise the intake too high? If it's just the intake that's too tall, you might be able to merge a FWD bottom half with an LT1 top half of the upper intake somehow. How hard is it to weld aluminum? Tiago did it.

[black34v6]

LOL. weld aluminum? its tricky..and..actually NO...tiago didnt, he got the intake from james montigny, who got it done at NRT.

as for fabbing something from a LT1...no it wouldnt work due to the fact that the intakes are really really differnt...i just dont see it working..

anyway, the LT1 TB on the 3100 intake should work ok. -- its not that. i have pictures and i will post them. might not be as big an issue as i thought, was looking over the whole thing tonite..and thinking about how the stock 3.4 intake works.

anyway..goin to go do some thinkin..

-R

edit: for all of you that would like to look... here are some preliminary pics of the car in the garage and the engine out and parts everywhere. in there somewhere is a picture of the enginebay, and the little bump that comes down on the cowl (that i have to contend with) -- enjoy. ill be taking more on sunday, and then as the work is completed.

edit #2: brainfart! -- guess it would help to post the link..duh... http://camaro.adwire.com/page001.htm

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Russell ]</p>