Dropping in a 454 Big Block-----Possibilities???? (NEW!Check out Link to ZL1 Pics!!!)

[CHRISB]

I have a 3.4 in now. After careful consideration, I have ruled out the options of trading in my car for a Z28 or dropping in an LT-1 or LS1. I want to buy a 454 big block or a 400 c.i.d. motown block from Merlin or World Products. Either choice would be a completly wild custom build up. I would like to slowly buy the parts to build up the motor as I work on it in my garage. That way my car is still driveable until the time for the swap is here. The engine would have just the standard parts common to a big block engine, all forged internals, large cc heads. Wether or not a carburator or fuel injection will be used is yet to be decided. The task of custom designing a fuel injection system, or the cost of buying an Edlebrock or Accel DFI system is staggering. Transmission choice would be along the lines of a TH-400 or a 4L80E. I have seen the ZL-1 camaro with the 572c.i. motor, so don't tell me it can't be done. I just want to know how hard it is to connect all the accesories to the engine: ac, power steering, brakes, radiator, guages, etc. What kind of commitment am I looking at? Is it easier to build a 355 or 383 small block for my car? Please no negative feedback, only help :D .

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: CHRISB ]</p>

[Tri-Flo 99]

man that would be wild...if ur going small block, then id go with a LS/T1 motor, a 382 LS1 or a 396 LT1 would be bad azz, that big block would be sweet, computer stuff wouldnt work right, it would be hard...good luck

[CHRISB]

I was considering saying: screw fuel injection. Even buying a manufactured fuel injection system is between $1,000-2000. A big fat four barrel carburator would be a hell of a lot easier than fuel injection. The gas mileage would drop :rolleyes: , but with that size engine and the hp, who cares anyway. I want simple, period. Nothing too complicated. I want to be able to do this in a months time. Probably won't happen until the summer. I want a very strong engine combination that's easy to tune and diagnose, and very simple running. Nothing too expensive or difficult. Just a stout iron block, great heads, and a healthy intake and carb :D .

[C.Palmer]

this could get interesting.... the 350's hardly fit as it is! i see a BIG cowl hood and smashed up knuckles in your future :eek:

[Ttop34]

So why do you want to put this in a 94 V6 camaro? Why not get something like a 69 Camaro, 70 Chevelle or better for traction, a early 70's Vette. http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/ykp53/ Why stick it in our cars which get horrible traction?

Well there are some legal issues with that your thinking of doing, I forget entirely what they are but has something to do with emitions. Why limit yourself with only 400 or 454 ci? Go head and bump it up to 502 or 540ci. You'll have to totally custom rebuid the front end for clearance and connectability so don't think that your going to have to not drive your car for a weekend while you put this monster in, more like weeks or months while you cut and weld on your car. Of course you'll have to find a super strong rear end to handle that much torque.

[pgriffith]

I dont think it will be an easy fit. OUr cars engines sit far behind the windsheild and there squished so far back there there is no way even with a cowl hood you can make it fit. Biggest problem is we run coil packs and im sure a BB like that will be running a distributor and theres not alot of room for even a distributor back there. I say save your money and if you want a 454BB car get an older camaro. SOmething that will be easy. If you want to make your car fast get an LT1.

[CHRISB]

Here's the skinny:

Emissions isn't a problem living in Florida, no emissions checkin anymore :D . Why not get a old Chevelle or Vette? I like the 4th Gen F-Body ;) . It's the best handling Chevy built. An LT-1 wouldmake power, but I wanta big block [img]graemlins/burnout.gif[/img] . I know the fit will be tight. The fenders will have to be massaged out a little. But I know a big block will fit because I have seen it done. The ZL1 572 cid Camaro is living proof. Basically I want horse power and torque from displacement. I don't want to have to put tons of money into expensive small block parts. A stroker LT-1 would cost over $5000 in parts alone. I just want something different [img]tongue.gif[/img] . Is that so wrong .

[Formulao96]

Big Block = Big Bucks No matter how you look at it, it is cheaper and easier to maintain a small block over a big block. Dont you think everyone would have a BB if it was cheaper? You have to think of your suspension. Right now you have a V6 suspension, if you went to an aluminum small block V8 you would still have to upgrade your suspension a little. Now you want to drop an elephant under your hood, you better go to BMR fabrications and buy every front suspension piece that they sell. If you have the time and the money go for it, but if this is your daily driver then you are making a big mistake jumping into an unknown realm of engine swapping.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Formulao96 ]</p>

[CHRISB]

I'm not asking whether or not I should do it :rolleyes: . I want to know how hard it is to match up all the accessories and drivetrain to the engine. Besides buying the block, pistons, heads, rods, cam, and other such engine parts, what do I need to match parts? I was considering buying either a engine kit, or a crate motor. GM Performance sells a 454 crate motor for around $4,300 w, 425hp. And PAW has a 427/454 kit for short block-$2,295, long block-$2,795. As for suspension, probably would need Tubular K member. But I think the ZL1 has stock A-arms. Heavy duty shocks are in order, as are higher spring rates. The ZL1 also has a Dana 60 rear axle with custom welding for control arm brackets and torque arm mounting, plus spring pearches and lower shock mounts. As I stated before, I DO NOTwant a small block ;) . I want a big block for the pure torque and displacement. I want to put huge 7.4L badges on the fenders, and a Big Block ensing on the hood :D . Just braintstorming now. Looking for a project for next summer.

[Brian Robichaud]

Stick with a small block, the big block could work with enough time, money, and effort. Do you plan do drive it on the street, even if the inspectors in your area don't check now, what about a few years from now when the EPA feds are breathing down the inspectors necks. As for handling, a couple hundred extra pounds up front will throw off the balance of the car. Besides the engine you will need to spend money on the rest of the car. New front suspension to handle the extra weight, the trans, maybe a custom rear end to handle the power, upgrade the rear suspension to get some traction. Custom exhaust, for true duals, I don't think a Y-pipe would flow enough for a big block. Also don't forget subframe connectors, and a roll cage so you don't twist the body (I hope you don't have T-tops). I could see at least $5000 or $10,000 going into a project like this, if its done right. A few weeks ago I had a chance to get a 454 big block for my 1980 Z28, but decided not to because of the above reasons. So if you want simple, stick with a Mighty Mouse engine. Maybe someday I can aford a Mowtown 427ci small block.

[Formulao96]

Good luck, but your car is going to twist like a pretzel. Its alot more work and money than you are anticipating. I dont even think it will work because you want to put an engine that is 1)just too damn big, and 2)has a rear distributor that will not fit under the firewall, and even if you rig it, it will not be easy to tune. Its $4300 for the engine(without the intake and carb probably), but how much for the tranny, flywheel, custom driveshaft, torque converter, rear end, all the accessories, radiator, probably steering, ignition system, fuel system, custom exhaust, hood, and $$Labor$$...on...on...on..dont forget 8 miles per gallon, thats always great. Not trying to put you down or anything, but your looking to do a $12000 job on a $4000 car. Why did GM only make 1, because it is a pain in the a-s-s to do, look at the problems they had also. Im not trying to tell you not to do it, but do the math first, extensively. I tried somethin different. I put a $1000 custom turbo kit in my car, and now my car has been at the shop for a month getting the engine replaced because I cracked the heads and the engine was only a few hundred more. I dont regret it for 1 sec, but I never thought I would have this much problems. Just think about it really hard before you hand your life over to the credit card company.

If you really want to go big block, buy a $500 3rd gen and just go radical.

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Formulao96 ]</p>

[Bird_Of_Prey]

OMG, why even waste your time asking this question on this site? Why not take it where someone might be able to help. There are tons of V8 sites out there. Anyway, everyones going to tell you the same thing, don't do it, it's insanely tough. I'll tell you why.

1. This would be completely custom, like over $15000 easy for what your thinking. The block your talking about is at least $1700 alone. Then you need rods, pistons, crank, all bearings, and rings. If you put some crappy off the shelf summit specials in there, you might as well castrate yourself and save the trouble later when you have problems. If you put junk in, don't expect it to last long at all, you get what you pay for. So, I'm going to be brutally honest,
A. Crank- anything decent is going to cost at least $1000 or better.
B. Rods- figure somewhere around $1000 there to along with pistons.
C. Rings and Bearings- Good luck trying to find them for a Motown block, they have their own bearing sizes and clearances. Rings are pretty standard though.

2. Now you need to put heads on your new monster $5000 bottom end. Figure around $2000 for a set of decent heads. Bare castings are going to be in the neighborhood of $1000, then you need to put valves in them, rocker arms on them, valve seals, guides, locks, springs, and none of those parts are cheap either. Then you need to have them ported and polished, more money there since there aren't any "off the shelf" heads for this application.

3. Assembly- At this stage you have all the shortblock components necessary, but you forgot all the minor BS that will bite you in the *** . Now your calling Jeg's and Summit trying to find an oil pan that works for your application of a big block in a 4th gen, sorry, don't stock those. Then you need valve covers that clear your inner shock tower mounts, once again, probably needs to be custom made. Just a guess here, but you might need an oiling system, can't just strap any old oil pump, nor would I want to since you have a ton of money invested. So now we run into a few more problems, all the nuts and bolts need to be put together and the engine needs to be assembled, off to the machine shop you go. The new engine you got is going to need to have the cylinders honed and the head surface decked since it comes as a pretty rough casting, machine shops aren't cheap. Figure around $1000 just to screw it together.

4. Installation- Yet another long series of setbacks and disappointments. After you gut the entire engine bay you need to start sledgehammering away at your car to "massage" it to fit this big hunk of iron. Once it's opened up you can measure and fabricate new engine mounting brackets. Right here I would like you to take a moment to admire your newly formed money pit. Drop the engine in, low and behold, the new trans doesn't fit your stock trans crossmember and your trans tunnel needs to be "massaged", so you need more custom fabrication. Once that's completed, you attempt to install the driveshaft, but wait, the driveshaft you have is not the right lenght due to the new sizes of the engine and trans combo. After measuring and calling a driveshaft shop, you pay about $200 for a custom driveshaft. Everything is bolted up, and your stock 10 bolt rear end is under the car, yeah right, that junk will be disinigrated after you put the car into drive. Time to call Strange or Moser and pray you have another $2500 on your credit card to cover that cost.

5. Now you have a longblock, time for a fuel delivery system, where to start... You could put a carb on it, do you know how to tune a carb? Tuning carbs is a lost art, I doubt you could even tell me how carburation works. Why use something you don't understand? Fuel injection would be simple, but costly. Yes it's about $2500 for the Holley FI setup, then you need to install it and make the car run. None of these aftermarket systems are "Plug and Play" you need to write the programs yourself. F.A.S.T. is probably the best one on the market, it's more commonly known as speedpro engine management, but like I just said, you need to tune it yourself otherwise your new engine won't even run. So let's say you get this far.... doubtful, but I want to make this as clear and comprehensive as possible. Engine is in car and management system is in place, you need to tune it. Are you going to go with a stoichiometric fuel curve trying to obtain a perfect 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio? Or are you going to put in a performance tune?

At this step you have a car sitting there with NO hope of ever running and you still need MORE PARTS!!!! A shifter for your new trans, steering rack that will clear the new engine, radiator with the capacity to cool an engine with nearly twice the displacement of your current engine, steering linkage from steering wheel to new steering rack that clears your headers, and the list goes on and on. This has alot of custom work and hidden costs.

Now for me to dissect your posts. You contradicted yourself, first you said you wanted a BBC 454, then you said a SBC 400 would be ok too... Make up your mind! Also, you stated that the 4th gen is the best handling f-body ever... Umm... well, they realy haven't changed the suspension at all since 1982, so that point is shot to hell, not to mention that it's much easier to do this swap on a thirdgen due to underhood clearances. Long story short, either you need a BIG bank account to do this, or some serious knowledge on how to do alot of custom work, i.e. welding, bodyforming, computer programming and so forth.

Sorry if I seem to come off as harsh, it's not purely directed at you, but you need to know what your getting yourself involved in here.

Regards and Flamesuit On

[HAZ-Matt]

People have put 502s in fourth gens before. They will fit.

The easiest thing if you just wanted big cubes would be an LS1 or LT1 bored/stroked to 7.0L...

If you just wanted to have the badge on the side, you could do that and put "427" on it.

[CHRISB]

Well thanks for the encouragement guys :rolleyes: . I know that you would be so jealous if I actually did such a swap ;) . I had the 3rd gen idea though. I could get one for cheap and they have alot of cowl space and clearance [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] . I don't care for the looks however. Thanks for the advice. I'll probably have to stick with a small block for now, since you guys say so :rolleyes: [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] . I never get discouraged :D .

[3.4 slow to go]

how's this for encouragement: theperson I got my 3.4 from did just such a swap. made it into a race car, so I'm sure he did some other "body modifications" you're not planing to do. Just remeber to sell us 3rd gens the old engine/tranny/ecm combo. that way we can go around w/the DIS system, and not have to reuse the funky 3piece manifold set up ;)