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**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 04:22 PM

Is there no interest at ALL in this topic? I figured at least Keith would like to bicker with me. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Scott

**Arctc Wolf** · 08-31-2002, 05:07 PM

When looking at heads, you should consider the mid-lift flows a bit more than max-lift flows. The reason behind this is because more time is spent at mid-lift than max. Comparing the flow numbers fron .150-.400 would give you a good idea of which set of heads would make more power. Of course when getting heads or a cam, it is best to do both since they're so closely related to each other. as far as having more of a exhaust bias on cam's for our engines, it all depends on how well the exhaust is scavenged out of the cylinerd by the headers, cat, and cat-back. you won't need as much lift and/or duration if it's being pulled/pushed out quickly enough.

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 05:17 PM

Right. Look at the flow #s.

Scott

**Magnus** · 08-31-2002, 06:49 PM

I will do more than bicker. Scott you really need to stop reading hear say and stop talking to those that hype the "bigger is better" crap.

Bigger is NOT always better.

Want a 4000 stall, you better shift at 6500. Want a HUGE cam, well I hope your shifting after 6500. Want to rev to 6500 frequently, Do you intend to remove the balance shaft and balance your entire rotating assembly?

Do the math on our cyl sizes. We don't have cylinders as big as LT1's or LS1's.. Our cylinders are smaller.. We don't NEED the huge durations. A cam that is big on our car is very mild on a LS1. Compare our stock cam vs theres if you want.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Scott Black:
I have noticed that everyone's cams are so SMALL. 212/212 112 LSA is the biggest one around here. I am reading previous posts such as these...

212/212 is not small. Do not try to convince people that it is.

I would like to revive the DD2k post. Concerning cam #s, i have to agree with Dom's posts. I believe our engines are configured more like the LT1s as far as STOCK flow #s are concerned. So if you want a cam for stock heads then you should increase the exhaust side significantly more than the intake side.

On stock heads I recomend a 4 to 8 degree favor on the exhaust. For NA I recomend 4, for N20 on stock heads I'd recomend 8.

As for ported heads, i believe Keith is right to an extent about cam specs. (I'll get to the heads in a second.) But i still don't think that an even intake/exhaust duration is the way to go. The exhaust still needs to be favored on any cam that wants real power for the 3.8

Do the math on the exhaust vs intake flow. Its greater than .80. There is no need to favor exhaust.

As for heads.... We currently have 3 options:
1. SSM heads
2. Thrasher heads
3. Local porting heads (does no good for community)

Go with SSM. The more heads we get out to Tom the better porting he will do. He is doing some AMAZING things with the v6 mustangs.

In a few weeks the Riggs Racing heads will be dyno'ed on 3 cars, one with just heads and the other two with heads and cam. I will then make my decision on which set of heads to buy. Right now I am leaning on Thrasher heads. Why? Look at the post regarding them vs. Supersix.
http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ulti...&f=16&t=000018

Wow, I'm sorry for you.

The stock #s are different but that is what concerns me. If the two had been evenly matched the results would have been different. It is very hard to tell which would flow better but i still believe that the Thrashers would. Look at the gains at .50 lift. The Thrasher heads gain more in comparison to the SSM heads, and if the stock #s were the same Thrasher would be on top as far as CFMs are concerned.

*sigh*... Scott, you go with Thrasher. I'm not going to talk in detail about why I recomend not.. but you know everything. So go with Thrasher and a huge cam. Make peak power at 6700 and shift at 6500.

So unless the Riggs heads prove better numbers (which is VERY possible) then i am going to get the Thrasher heads.

I STRONGLY recomend anybody but scott that is concidering heads to go with Supersix and not Thrasher.

The cam is totally dependant on the head flow #s which we have to wait a few weeks for.

Let the replies begin...... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Scott<hr></blockquote>

Ported heads application:
Stricly NA, symmetrical pattern
NA + N20, +4 favor on exhaust
Heavy N20, +8 on ehxuast

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 07:00 PM

Keith, no, I don't know everything. That is why i post this so i can learn from others (like yourself) that really know the stuff. Theory vs. practice is a total different animal. I look at the theories, but you know the practice as well as theory. I WANT you to explain why Thrasher heads aren't good enough, because i DON'T know how to piece it together. On paper it looks as if they are better if the stock #s matched, but i could be wrong. So please detail why you think they aren't good enough.

Again, I don't know everything. But i'm not going to argue with you about that because you have more experience than i do in all aspects of the 3.8. I was hoping that only you would respond to this post. Thanks.

Also, the V6 Mustang work is irrelevant, unless Ford and GM share the same motor in the Mustangs and F bodies.

Scott

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Scott Black ]

**supersixjohn** · 08-31-2002, 07:04 PM

Is there proof which heads are better? Supersix does ford heads, Thrasher does GM heads. Maybe Scott was leaning towards Thrasher partly cause of this fact?

Hopefully Riggs Racing can make good heads. Edit. Oh yeah, they'll have dynos soon. Finally a company that is not scared to dyno their heads. Will supersix or thrasher ever do that?

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: supersixjohn ]

**Magnus** · 08-31-2002, 07:06 PM

I could start Magnus head porting company. I could do some extravagant head work and make good gains. Then when orders come in if I didn't do the same extravagant work you wouldn't be getting what you THOUGHT you were getting.

I've also seen heads from both companies and have talked with owners of heads from both companies.

If you want heads from a guy who will put in the extra effort, talk to Tom @ Supersix. Call him up.

Tom will put the extra time in to get you a good product. Can you be sure other companies will do the same?

Edit:
Do you know the volume of heads Thrasher does?

Tom@Supersix has done quite a few GM head sets now. He knows what he's doing.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Magnus ]

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 07:07 PM

That is part of it, but as stated in the other threads, it's not the amt of time working on something as is the quality of it. Tom just may know his stuff impeccably with our heads as well as the V6 Mustang heads, we do not know that yet though. There is no dyno proof of just SSM heads on any car.

Again I stress that I don't want this to be an argumentative post, it was created so that we can build knowledge here. Thanks.

Keith you know something about either Thrasher or SSM that we don't and i want to find out what that is. Why are you so angry towards Thrasher? Bad service or crappy product or what?

Scott

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Scott Black ]

**Magnus** · 08-31-2002, 07:22 PM

I'm not going to vendor bash here. I just think you will get a better product from Supersix. I'm very confident you will.

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 07:24 PM

Okay, well why exactly do you think they are better than Thrasher? You don't have to vendor bash, just state your facts that you have gathered. It is not considered bashing just because one company cannot provide the same #s as another. Thank you.

Scott

**Magnus** · 08-31-2002, 07:28 PM

Scott, read my previos reply. What comes to your door might not be what you THOUGHT you were going to get. Kapish?!

Your taking a gamble. With Supersix, your gauranteed good product.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Magnus ]

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 07:36 PM

Where is your evidence? I've yet to see anything besides the one track run by you when you ran the 13.8 on bad tuning.

Nino's car was slower with his Powerpack, but it could be because of install problems.

You still have yet to help me understand stuff in the original post. Thank you.

Scott

**Magnus** · 08-31-2002, 07:45 PM

Forget it Scott.

You think SSM or Thrasher are going to benchflow EACH set of heads like MTI Stage III's? You think they are going to CNC match ports? No. It's some guy sitting at a table with a grinding tool. If he chooses to put in less effort than the advertised flow tested ones, well then sucks for you doesn't it? Or you could just go with Supersix and get a set of heads thats a more than what you can do in your own garage.

**scottblack** · 08-31-2002, 08:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Scott Black:
Where is your evidence? I've yet to see anything besides the one track run by you when you ran the 13.8 on bad tuning.

Nino's car was slower with his Powerpack, but it could be because of install problems.

You still have yet to help me understand stuff in the original post. Thank you.

Scott<hr></blockquote>

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Cam specs vs. Head flow #'s on 3.8

Cam specs vs. Head flow #'s on 3.8

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