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  • Twin Fire v6?

    A Tech at a local chevy dealer in my Car Club was tellen me about a twin fire concept, if you had two cylinders firing at the same time, has any one tried this? I know dodge has done it in the viper, im just not sure if any one has attempted this on a 3.8l v6. Correct me if Im wrong, but by having two cylinders fire at the same time on a 3.8l v6, it would be similar to a 7.6l v4. This would also put a strain on the crank shaft, but wouldnt I also see some impressive HP gains? that increase in HP per Stroke would theoreticly be 50% what it is with 1 cyl per stroke. any one have any interesting tips about this?
    97\' Red Camaro V6<br />::::Mods::::<br /> -Borla Single Cat <br /> -K&N FIPK<br /> -High Flow Cat<br /> -G2 Aluminum Drive Shaft (1 Peice)<br /> -G2 Trailing Arms<br /> -H&R Racing Springs<br /> -BAER Bump Steer<br /> -Bilstien Racing Shocks<br /> -Hurst short shifter<br /> -Eaton Posie Diferential<br /> -.373 Gears<br /> -NOS 85 shot<br /> -NOS Purge<br />(n/a) 1/8th Mile ET: 9.4 @ 81mph<br /><a href=\"http://members.cox.net/nitrous/index.htm\" target=\"_blank\">http://members.cox.net/nitrous/index.htm</a>

  • #2
    im intrested in this but it sounds like 1 of those things thats to good to be true because when something goes wrong it'll be expensive to fix. if theres a way to do it safely im down to try it.
    My ride: <br /><a href=\"http://members.cardomain.com/youngdeezy\" target=\"_blank\">http://members.cardomain.com/youngdeezy</a><br />98 Firebird 3.8L A4<br />Mods:80 seires flow master muffler<br />dual exhaust 3\" pipes,whisper lid<br />k&N filter,3.42 gears and LSD, 180 thermostat, free ram air mod & 1/2\" raised air box + some apperance mods<br />1/4 mile 15.8 @ 85mph<p>I\'ll see you in the traffic...

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    • #3
      Umm ... think of it this way -- the dodge viper crank is set up to fire two pistons at the same time. We couldn't do that without redoing the crank, and then i'd imagine we'd shred the block in half. Firing 2 of 10 cylinders is a lot different than 2 of 6. Leave that for the big boys who pay $80k for a car. I'll stick with a supercharger dream, and good ol' regular 1-4-2-5-3-6, or whatever it is.

      -Rob
      <b>97 Camaro 3.8L M5</b><br />Car for sale<a href=\"http://terpmotors.com\" target=\"_blank\">terpmotors.com</a> Terrapin Motorsports! UMCP

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      • #4
        well to do this...you would have to have a camshaft custom made so that the valves open at the right time, and you may have to have a crank custom built so the pistons in the cylinders that will be firing at the same time will hit TDC at the same time
        <b>Black</b> 1998 Pontiac <i>Firebird</i> A-4 swap<br />271.4rwhp/259.4rwtq NA<br />13.30@102.44 <br /><a href=\"http://www.freewebs.com/wickedsix98\" target=\"_blank\">www.freewebs.com/wickedsix98</a>

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        • #5
          Our fireing order is 1-6-5-4-3-2 for both 3.8 and 3.4. 6-3 share the same coil, 2-5 also share the same coil, and 1-4 share the same coil. Now with that in mind that does not mean that they fire at the same time being on the same coil but after one fires the other one is right behind it.
          2004 Dodge Dakota 3.7 litres of raw power!!<br />Nothing but a 6!<br />Do you know for sure? John 3:18

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          • #6
            The paired wires do fire at the same time, but not nessesarily the same power. Car companies started to do that to reduce emmisions by firing on both the compression and exhaust stroke. Older models used 8 plugs for a 4 cyl engine, now they just double fire them. There is a reason that engineers don't design engines that way. If you were to fire 2 cylinders at the same time, you would have the same thing as a 3 cylinder cycle action. This causes an extreme out of balance condition within the engine and a rough running one as well. Granted the metro uses that for their engine, but in ours, there would be a longer pause to then rid those two cylinders of exhaust gasses. By only firing one cylinder at a time, there is a smoother application of force on the crank, making for a better torque transfer.

            I don't know anything about the viper/ram V10s, but if you ever hear then, it sounds like a 10 cylinder and not a 5 cylinder. I suspect that they too do the same as Chevy, Toyota, etc, and fire the coils on compression and exhaust strokes and not two compression strokes.
            1995 Firebird 3.8 A4, 140,000 miles and going strong<br />Basically Stock, college=poor <p>Junior Mechanical Engineering Student: Milwaukee School of Engineering; Cpl, MN Army National Guard...just got promoted :)

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            • #7
              <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toast:
              Our fireing order is 1-6-5-4-3-2 for both 3.8 and 3.4. 6-3 share the same coil, 2-5 also share the same coil, and 1-4 share the same coil. Now with that in mind that does not mean that they fire at the same time being on the same coil but after one fires the other one is right behind it.<hr></blockquote>


              not sure if you meant the fireing order on a 3.4 and 3.8 are the same but the 3.4 is 1-2-3-4-5-6 i think i may have misread your post though
              1998 Jet Black Trans-am M6 T-tops<br />\"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find: knock and it shall be opened unto you:-Matthew 7:7<br />Old car<br /><a href=\"http://matthew27529.tripod.com/getsome\" target=\"_blank\">http://matthew27529.tripod.com/getsome</a><br />NEW CAR<br /><a href=\"http://garnerebel.tripod.com/\" target=\"_blank\">http://garnerebel.tripod.com/</a>

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              • #8
                some 3.4 motors just have 1 coil for all plugs [img]tongue.gif[/img] plus, in keeping the current firing order, it helps keep engine momemtum going, and yes, is easier on the crank.
                1978 Formula 461 in progress of being built :rock:
                2013 Ram 1500 Big Horn

                former owner of 85 bird w/ 2.8 - 3.4 - 3800 II - 5.0
                94 comero 3.4

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                • #9
                  <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by southern94:



                  not sure if you meant the fireing order on a 3.4 and 3.8 are the same but the 3.4 is 1-2-3-4-5-6 i think i may have misread your post though
                  <hr></blockquote>

                  No the 3.4 is 1-6-5-4-3-2.
                  2004 Dodge Dakota 3.7 litres of raw power!!<br />Nothing but a 6!<br />Do you know for sure? John 3:18

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                  • #10
                    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toast:


                    No the 3.4 is 1-6-5-4-3-2.
                    <hr></blockquote>

                    The 3.4L V6's correct firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6.
                    2001 Onyx Black Camaro M5-Totalled<br />2005 Ford F150 XLT 5.4L<br /><br />\"To make peace, prepare for war.\"

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                    • #11
                      correct fin [img]smile.gif[/img]

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                      • #12
                        Toast eats it!!!

                        Scott

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                        • #13
                          so does anyone realy know much about this? It would idle rough... it would chug... but thats awesome! If its maken more power who realy cars how it idles? I sertianly dont. I need some of the big guys help on this...
                          97\' Red Camaro V6<br />::::Mods::::<br /> -Borla Single Cat <br /> -K&N FIPK<br /> -High Flow Cat<br /> -G2 Aluminum Drive Shaft (1 Peice)<br /> -G2 Trailing Arms<br /> -H&R Racing Springs<br /> -BAER Bump Steer<br /> -Bilstien Racing Shocks<br /> -Hurst short shifter<br /> -Eaton Posie Diferential<br /> -.373 Gears<br /> -NOS 85 shot<br /> -NOS Purge<br />(n/a) 1/8th Mile ET: 9.4 @ 81mph<br /><a href=\"http://members.cox.net/nitrous/index.htm\" target=\"_blank\">http://members.cox.net/nitrous/index.htm</a>

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                          • #14
                            how much are you willing to spend on a crank to take the abuse, main caps made to hold it in, & a block beefy enough to keep the bottom from blowing out. also cam designed for the firing order, & igntion designed to fire multiplugs @ same time.

                            Does antbody know if the viper motor uses balance shafts?
                            1978 Formula 461 in progress of being built :rock:
                            2013 Ram 1500 Big Horn

                            former owner of 85 bird w/ 2.8 - 3.4 - 3800 II - 5.0
                            94 comero 3.4

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                            • #15
                              A four stroke is still a four stroke. The cylinder can only fire and produce power on the compression stroke. There is no way to get the cylinder to fire more often than that. If you fire two cylinders at once, then you open up a gap in the overall engine revolutions where no cylinder is firing. Because instead of having the firing spread out equally across the degrees of revolution, the firing is being bunched up in pairs.

                              Imagine a 2 cylinder engine, for example.

                              Normal firing sequence:

                              Cylinder 1 fires on its compression stroke, while cylinder 2 is on the exhaust/intake stroke. Cylinder 2 fires while cylinder 1 is on its exhaust/intake stroke.
                              For every revolution of the crank, one cylinder is firing.

                              Double firing sequence:

                              Cylinder 1 and cylinder 2 fire.
                              Then both cylinders go through their exhaust/intake cycle at the same time, while nothing is firing.
                              On one revolution of the crank, both cylinders fire. On the next revolution of the crank, no cylinder fires. It is probably smoother, since opposing pistons can fire simultaneously.

                              But no more power, since no more filling/firing is taking place per rpm. 2 firings per 2 revolutions is the same as one firing per 1 revolution in the standard example.

                              The double fire is counteracted by the double dead time.
                              \'98 A4 Camaro v6-&gt;v8 conversion, and STS kit next<br />v6: 13.6 Powerdyne, 13.2 150 shot, 13.8 120 shot, 14.3 85 shot, 15.7 stock<br />v8(na): 12.18@113, 392rwhp<br />Moderator on <a href=\"http://www.mtfba.org\" target=\"_blank\">www.mtfba.org</a> and <a href=\"http://www.frrax.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.frrax.com</a> (Road Race & Autocross)<br /><a href=\"http://community.webshots.com/user/johnduncan10\" target=\"_blank\">Car pics</a>, <a href=\"http://www.trscca.com\" target=\"_blank\">TN Region SCCA</a>

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