400 or 454

[WickEdSix9838]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> i don't agree with you about the costs being worth it. we are talking abotu a built up stock does not apply here.
teh sbc has a ton of great stuff available, jsut like the big block.
my two gripes about teh big blaock will always be the cost of parts and the weight of the finished product.
racing in general relies a lot on a good power to weight ratio, and the dollar per hp is always a limiting factor. if you pick up an LS1 for a few thousand bucks, do a mild rebuild with a custom cam and throw a turbo on top you will fly and be carry prolly 200 lbs less than a big block making the same power.
big inches do make big torque, that is true. but boost on smaller cubes can make a more linear torque curve, shich is where the best acceleration comes from.
shifting an LS1 past 6000 is no big deal, guys do it forever on stock bottom ends all the time. with 10-12 psi you can put a very mild LS1 motor well over 500hp and 500ft/lbs. all it takes to go way above that woudl be a bit more aggressive cam selection, aftermarket heads(patriot has very good ones at good prices) and an intake upgrade.
if you wanna compare the race abilities of both maybe you can head to atco soemtime. there is a guy who always runs no time with a turbo'ed 377 small block, yes it is one of those horrible factory cast 400 blocks with a 350 crank in it. one day in the lanes he left his timeslip on the seat, it said 8.92 on it.
any block small or big can be made to spin up perfectly reliably. it is time for a lot fo people to accept some technology and start backing off the big inch mentality a bit.
don't get me wrong, big blocks are cool as hell. drivign street ones is sweet, great burnouts and they pull good. but for racing the advanatage is in the high tech small blocks court.
motor either way, so worrying about stock for
later
tim
<hr></blockquote>
im not talking about with power adders here, if that why dont you put a turbo on a big block?? they dont cost that much more and the extra power they make(especially with aftermarket heads) will without a doubt make up for the weight, my dad has a customer that has a NA 377 w/brodix track 1 heads and all the good 4340 forged parts and he runs stock 400 blocks with splayed steel main caps and theres no tellin how many blocks hes cracked and tore up, and if you wanna talk about ET's my dads NA 509 ci BBC made 925hp and 707ft lb of torque on the dyno with one carburetor, conventional 24* BBC brodix 2x heads and an edelbrock 454-R intake, it ran a 8.37@161 in 5000' DA air,
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> LS1 for a few thousand bucks, do a mild rebuild with a custom cam and throw a turbo on top you will fly and be carry prolly 200 lbs less than a big block making the same power.
<hr></blockquote>
why couldnt u go buy a stock big block out of a junkyard and put a turbo??? what would that do??
my dad has told me about when he was in college he had a 68 camaro with a 327, 4 speed, cam, headers, gears, typical mods and he said it ran mid 13's which is pretty quick, then he said he built up a 68 camaro w/a 427ci big block, he supposedly "ported" his own heads(which he had no idea what he was doing since it was his first time) and had the cheapest stuff possible in the motor, cast pistons, some $20 cast iron rings, cheap machine work, and in that car w/a TH350 tranny, 3.73's, a 800 carb, and stock TC he ran a mid 12's at 1000 less RPMS and 200 lbs more weight, now tell me NA for NA a big block isnt better, and that motor was a serious POS...

[ January 21, 2004: Message edited by: WickEdSix9838 ]</p>

[95Batmobile]

WickEdSix9838 you are listing parts that are VERY expensive...
And whoever told you that the 400 overheats and the block sucks doesn't know what they're talking about, sorry.

In a newer camaro, I would put in the 400. My bro has a small block 406 in his nova and it's enough to scare ya. Put a supercharger on a 400 and you will have more hp than you will know what to do with. My dad is making 600rwhp just from his blown 327!
Build a small block right and it will eat up big blocks all day... unless you're like a professional drag racer or something going against John Force LOL.

[njspder]

wickedsix9838,
i don't really understand. so a mild big block can run 12's in a mild car? BFD an LS1 can run 12's with 1 or 2 extremely mild bolt ons in a full weigth 4th gen.
a turbo on a big block is a great thing, assuming you can afford the parts. with a 377 shifting 6500-7000 i was told i woudl need a 120mm head unit by 3 different companies(yes, i actually did look into this, i have two 400 sbc's in my garage right now), i can't imagine how expensive/huge a single you woudl need to feed a big block. for that matter you would prolly need twins, that ain't gonna be cheap.
i have helped build a lot fo motors in my life. big blocks have there place. it is for the all out, no budget worries crowd. for the rest of us that can't afford to run in the 7's or better, small blocks get teh job done easily and for less money.
keep your big block, i will rip a few more rpm and give the car some gear.

later
tim

[WickEdSix9838]

both of ya'll guys havent been around big blocks apparently, ive built 3 900+hp big blocks, and ya'll keep mentioning price, did you not say njspdr that we arent talkin stock?? BTW my dad ran that quick in the 70's, there werent many that could do that in west texas...also 95batmobile 400 blocks are junk for race motors, ive seen it for myself to know it, i didnt say they overheat, i said they crack, and once again, ya'll keep mentioning price, a turboed small block isnt gonna be cheap...BTW from some places you can buy BRAND NEW short blocks for a RACE 555ci BBC for like 4k w/all forged parts and a good block!! since when is that VERY expensive?????? also batmobile, my dads 509 is more than enough to scare you, i got to make a few 60'-100' passes in it and had a 1.21 60' on one of them and you can feel the rear moving around the whole time, hes had a 1.15 a few times...
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Build a small block right and it will eat up big blocks all day... unless you're like a professional drag racer or something going against John Force LOL. <hr></blockquote>
i guess you are just wanna go kinda fast, not real fast...Big Blocks are faster NA against NA, blown against blown assuming they all have been modified equally...and true njspdr a big block would take two HUGE turbos but its still possible...also a BB will turn just as much RPM, my dad turns his motor more RPMs than 95% of bracket racers do, even the guys w/small blocks, he shifts at 8400 regularly and turns it 8000 if the track isnt too good and it spins on the shift, we havent broke anything yet, and we even busted the planetary gears in the tranny once and he rode the 9000 high side chip for quite a while before he could get his foot of the gas, about 130 passes later we still had a motor running and hauling *** ...but until ya'll get a taste of a big block ya'll will be stuck on small blocks so im probably just wasting time trying to tell ya this...

[njspder]

i really don't know what your hang up is. in my first post in this thread i said that a big block will make more peak torque, yoru response was to shoot at the small block for not making as much peak torque. you mentioned expensive parts that make a bbc go fast, so i brought up expensive parts that make a fast sbc car.
now you seem to be locked into the thought that a 400 motor is a junk block. well, you are misinformed. i know a bunch of guys that have built 400's and put tons of passes and street miles on them with out any problems. just liek with big blocks there are blocks that are more and less desireable, but there aren't any that can't be built into an extremely strong and reliable street motor.
i have worked with and driven motors of all sizes and brands. jsut because my father doesn't own a machine business does not mean i haven't been into racing for a very long time and seen a ton of stuff. i have been racing personally on the street and track for about 15years now.
i have learned what it takes to make a car quick, and that is not a big block. dollar for dollar and pound for pound a streetable small block can own a streetable big block any day of the week and twice on sunday.
congrats for your dad for beign fast back in the day, but that is a poor example to use when you are trying to disprove the abilities of a high tech small block.

later
tim

[95Batmobile]

njspder you might as well give up... neither of us have been around blocks and motors and don't know what we're talking about. :rolleyes:

[WickEdSix9838]

have either of ya'll owned a big block??? didnt think so, so like i said in my last post, get one then you'll see whats better...on the street or the race track

[ January 23, 2004: Message edited by: WickEdSix9838 ]</p>

[95Batmobile]

So owning one makes you an expert?

[WickEdSix9838]

well my dads been porting heads for about 30 years, hes owned numerous small and big blocks on the street and in race cars, hes seen what works and what doesnt work many many times,hes been in the serious race world for about 25-30 years, ive worked w/him since i was 12, im 20 now and i garuntee he knows way more than 99.99% of the people on this site and all my info comes from him, so in a way i guess you could say yes i am... :D but its too hard to really analyze anything to full extent over a computer so yea this is really wasting all of our time...anyways this was an interesting topic and im done w/it, peace out...

[ January 23, 2004: Message edited by: WickEdSix9838 ]</p>

[Tru2Chevy]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WickEdSix9838:
have either of ya'll owned a big block??? didnt think so, so like i said in my last post, get one then you'll see whats better...on the street or the race track

[ January 23, 2004: Message edited by: WickEdSix9838 ]<hr></blockquote>

i guess that would include the poncho 455 i had that could lay stripes all the way through 2nd gear even with a toasted carb on it. but then again i wouldn't know cause my daddy never taught me anything......moron!
there are people in the world who have learned without the benefit of daddy's machine shop. i have had a hand in cars that would hand you your *** on a silver platter, all small blocks. i have built n/a, supercharged, and turbocharged engines of many different displacements and brands.
like i said, i have 15 years into this game, not the 8 that you have. if you looked out beyond the shelter of your fathers shop you would see what street motors are, not what you can build when the machine work is free.

later
tim

[njspder]

that was me, i didn't realize my friend was still logged on.

later
tim