let's get advanced about RAM-AIR.

[twofaced]

Well, I agree with MrCoffee, My old filter yah, it would get dusty, but now my filter is dirty. When you get small stick, and large blades of grass impaled in the filter its got to be pushing a good amount of air to get those items up there. Another example, I have a 2000 Camaro, my friend has a 99 firebird. Pretty much the same intake. I have the same exhaust set up as him, we both have whisper lids, but I have the CAI kit for my 2000. Starting our cars up side by side, and there is a real difference in exhaust sound, and the only difference in our set up is the CAI Kit. Third point is, my car is a 2000 with 105K on it, his is a 99 with about 70K. At the track I beat him every time hands down. The numbers prove it. My car just picks up speed faster, over all MPH is higher. I numbers off the line are practically identical, 60 ft times are around 2.2. Only mod I have different then he is the CAI. As for sealing up the compartment, there has to be a leak somewhere. NO AIR CAR NO RUN. Actually I watch a mechanics show not to long ago, I forgot it, but it was a special on Air Flow thru a car. And on the show it said, that all those aftermarket parts are a waste of money, including the K&N Filters. This show is mainly for building muscle cars, engine rebuild, frames, weight reductions. I would think that they would know since thats what they do. Another thing they stated, is the factor setup is no different than the aftermarket kits, the car needs air, it will get the air it needs no matter what or it wont run. Pretty simple straight point I think. I however agree with MrCoffee, I think it benifits us, not to mention, it is the only upgrade for us with new model cars 98+.

[MrCoffee]

and further more, nayblue's original test doesnt prove or disprove anything. All its saying is that the engine is getting air from somewhere else beside's the FTRA. That has no bearing on the effect of what the FTRA does or does not do.

Here's my method:
In order to prove whether or not the FTRA works, you'd have to put some sort of dye or an indicator that the air could pick up. Put that dye in the FTRA, and see if it moves to the filter, proving that air is flowing through the FTRA and into the filter. Since its unlikely any of us will do that, or even find a 'air dye' to use, the dirt on the filter is used as the indicator that air flows through the FTRA.
You could argue that there's not enough proof that the dirt is from the air flowing through the FTRA. However, the fact that it's exactly the same size rectangles as the one cut for the intake suggests that it is from the FTRA.

[ September 20, 2003: Message edited by: MrCoffee ]</p>

[Bliggida]

per 10 degrees of colder air = 1hp.

"Ram Air" is GM's name for a low restriction & cold air induction system.

Much like Posi-Trac for GM
Trac-Lok for Ford
And Posi-Lok on Chrysler
They all are different names to denote a limited slip differential.

That's all "Ram Air" is, the GM name for a high flow/CAI.

There is something to be said for allowing a free flowing induction system. Because free flowing and cold air are not the same thing, you can have one but not the other. That gain however is usually minimal unless it is combined with a cold air design also.

Say you have a stock air filtration system, with dirty paper filter, had it for 75,000 miles. You change over to 'ram air' in the sense of a free flowing air intake system, you will notice a improvement. You combine that with cold air, and you can see near 10-15 horsepower to the rear wheels (possibly more depending on how choked up the stock system was)

Cramming air into the intake or throttle body (or carb.) will only help to the point of no-restriction. It can't go past that (14.XX) of barometric pressure without using force induction.

I believe the math breaks out to around 1.1 PSI if you were traveling at 100 MPH. (1.1% of 200HP is about 2 horses) so the gain as far as power goes isn't very impressive. Where it helps is in engine efficiency. Thats why your gas mileage improves. Your engine is running better. Your engine is able to pull in more air, and the computer will compensate to allow an improved air/fuel mixture. It will further benefit you to run better gas at that point too.

I understand when people confuse the two terms, and I usually know what they mean so I don't correct people on something so trivial. But if you are after the technical differences, there they are.

"Ram-Air" began as a GM name for a high flowing and also cold air induction system.

People usually take "Ram-Air" to mean high flow.

And Cold Air Induction (CAI) to denote obviously the lowering of the ambient temperature of the incoming charge.

It all comes down to whose interpretation you choose to utilize. I normally stick with GM's. And so when I state I have "Ram-Air" like on my '79 Z28, that it is both High flowing/low restriction, and also cold air.


Here is a picture of my "Ram Air"
The chrome part your are seeing inside the scoop is the air filter itself...it don't flow much better than that!
I still have to finish up by sealing the carburetor off so that it only pulls air from outside the hood. A metal pan will do the job, but I will surface the under-side of that pan with heat reflective material to discourage engine heat from transfering through, and packing foam to seal the hood to the pan.

[Dominic]

The extra crud on your filter is not because air was going through the filter, its because air was wiping stuff off the ground and slamming it into the oily filter, this getting trapped.

There is no added "pressure due to velocity" pushing air through the filter, and just because there is more oppertunity for greater flow doesn't mean the intake will make use of it. If you've got a 3.8L V6 you're not going to pull more than maybe 425cfm of air through it. To get more than that, you need an air compressor... simple as that. Even still, with an air compressor (supercharger/turbocharger) you won't pull more than 425cfm of air, but it will be DENSER per the given flow, so it will end up being a greater MASS of air.

Ram Air, again, a simple marketing term.

[Bliggida]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dominic:
The extra crud on your filter is not because air was going through the filter, its because air was wiping stuff off the ground and slamming it into the oily filter, this getting trapped.
<hr></blockquote>

That may be true on the specific design of the Fast Toys style Ram Air setup on the L36 and LS1 F-bodies. But not all applications pull air from the ground like that. Mine takes a long time to get dirty because it pulls air from the actual hood scoop.

If somebody chose to desing a screen prior to the filter for the FTRA style system, I doubt it'd slow down any of the incoming air charge, and help keep that debris out of the air filter?

Dom has a good understanding of what's going on here. I surmise that You're (Dom) stating our Throttle body will only pull in 425cfm? Once you get to that point, there's no more benefit. But the question or point I would make is that the stock system and also depending on which aftermarket system you use may not even allow that much air flow in of itself. So "Ram Air" in the sense of pressurising the intake to take as much air as possible will have some benefit. But as I said, even at best you'll only notice that in efficiency, not seat of the pants power.

Dom, if you see me on AIM, would you holler at me, I have a question about what we talked about the other day, thanks.

[MrCoffee]

today was a nice day, so I washed my car. During the car's bath, I thought of a way to test the theory of whether it works or not. So after I shined her all up, I popped the hood, and started her up. Since the hurricane left plenty of leaves on the ground I picked a fairly large one up. Now it was wet from the rain, and my hose, so it was heavy. I got under the car and put it up to the opening of the FTRA. nothing happened. I was going the a vaccume effect. Cell phone in pocket, I called my house and got my sister outside. She revved the engine while I held the leaf up to the opening. A little flutter, but nothing major. I couldnt do it too much, cuz it get loud up under there [img]smile.gif[/img] Frustrated I thought of one more thing. Assued the position, and told my sis to slowly press it and at each solid RPM hold it for a few seconds. Eventually, we got up to 4, and the leaf was getting pulled, ever to slighty. Maybe even my imagination of just wanted it too, but I swear it was moving. 5 it was for sure. we couldnt go past the because of the park rev limiter. But for a 'heavy' leaf, it moved enough to convince me that in combination of the moving vehicle and suction from the engine, the FTRA helps. it might not ram air, but it provides more air for the engine to easily obtain

[twofaced]

You know, all this talk has got me wondering. THUS here is what I am going to do. Does anyone know if I remove the sensor from my whisper lid, will it hurt my car for lets say 10 minutes or so. One of the things I work with is air velometer, I will remove that sensor and check the actual air flow, it will measure from 0 to 2000 fpm of air, and I can calculate the air flow from there, shouldnt be to hard. Best thing about the meter, is I can lock it to hold the reading for the highest level, and I can do a data log and download it to a pc for over a time frame, lest say 5 or 10 minutes, cause I dont know what will happen if I remove that sensor and plug. Then after that, i will go to my friends, he has the whisper lid, with no CAI and we can test his firebird too. That will settle this lil argument/discussion. I will be back to work tuesday, I will pick the meter up then, and that can be my tuesday night project. Hows that, any bets want to be made?

[MrCoffee]

the only problem I see is that you're measuring past the intake. The engine will of already sucked up air from any source available. you'd have to test to see if there was air flow in the FTRA
The engine will pull the same amount of air, but on a stock system it lags a bit more because its harder for it to get the air it needs. The FTRA cuts down on lag because extra air is provided.
You have a good idea TwoFaces... is there anyway you could stick the meter in the FTRA? Tha'll prove that air flows through it.
To answer your question though, no it shouldnt hurt your car to remove that sensor.

[twofaced]

The probe used to measure with this meter is about the size of the shark nozzle on a nitrous kit. So its possible to measure it I would say. And since the meter is designed to use with high heat applications, the engine temp shouldnt affect it to much. I would say measuring closest point to the intake would be better anyway, because the potential for leaks with the connections after would also affect the reading, and what we are talking about is the CAI. The meter has readings for air temp and humidity as well, so I can use the correction factor so all reading should be equal as well. I can calculate the CFM through the tube since its a standard size. Like I said, I will grab the meter tuesday, and will test this theory tuesday night if I have time. Heck I will even take pictures so people can see the actual readings. I can mount the probe, and tape the meter or zip tie it to secure it. I will do an Idle test, then multiply speeds, in 10 MPH increments up to 65 or 75. That should provide more infor than what we have now.

And since we are talking air flow, I ready did some thinking about this with the !MAF screen. Now from what I was taught in industrial ventilation, any bend, curve, joint, connection or obstruction in the flow of air will cause turbulence. So I dont see how leaving the screen in will straighten the air, like I have seen people post on here time and time again. When the air passes over the screens, even more in higher pressures, the air is going to bend and curve, this causing turbulence, its not going to go straight thru the screen for smoother air. I would have to say that removing the screen would give you better air flow, which is what most people say. How it affects your vehicle I dont know, I have never seen it done. Just my 2 cents again. We can argue either of these points, but science is science and theory is theory. I dont see anyways to actually prove this besides mounting a pito tube on the backside of the !MAF screen. You can see a different static pressure with more turbulence.

[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: twofaced ]

[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: twofaced ]</p>

[MrCoffee]

Yes! good idea. Try at the top of the FTRA by the filter, that way it doesnt measure the air going across the scoop.

[twofaced]

I wish I had an extra cai kit, anyone wanna donate it for science? I could drill holes in the actual duct and get cross measurements there, that would be sweet. Dang MR. Coffee ur in Va too, nice to meet ya, I live between fredericksburg and charlotesville, little town called orange, heard of it?

As for measuring location, other than potential leaks, the amount of air goint thru the duct, thru the lid itself and thru the tubing going to the throttlebody should be the same. Only difference is the actual duct, which will speed the amount of air flow up or slow it down, but it should be the same. Q is to Q is to Q ventilation slang

[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: twofaced ]</p>

[MrCoffee]

I've heard of Fredericksburg and Charlotesville, but not Orange. I live about 20min north of fredricksburg in Dumfries/Manassas area.

[Brice77]

"I cleaned my K&N, and I still have bands."


Yeah! You are this band?
I've got it to!

[camaro_speedemon]

I brought this up a few months ago, and this thread gives some excellent points why "ram air" isn't "ramming" air in. The only gains you see from a "ram air" kit is from sucking in ambient air temperature, and a free-er flowing intake setup.

Ram-air = cold air, but about 5x's the cost of a cold air kit.


http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ulti...&f=25&t=003956

[twofaced]

My question is, is cold air actually cold air? I mean yah, you might get a little temp drop, but with the filter sucking hot air from the engine bay, come on. I wouldnt consider that cold air intake. Even more when people do there own CAI and the filter is mounted behind the radiator and AC cooler. Just my 2 cents again.