Valve Spring Problems???

[grayman]

Perhaps this can be incorporated into the 'everything they didn't tell you about cam/valvetrain modifications' sticky.
http://www.3800performance.com/Merch...roduct_Count=2

[grayman]

AZ3.8,
Thanks for traking down all the info regarding the timing dampner and double roller vs ballance shaft gear replacement. The searches I just performed came up with hits from your earlier postings on the subject. Those posts with info from clubgp were very helpful as well. http://www.3800performance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc
?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RM-RTS&Category_Code=CVT&Product_
Count=2

I really do think a sticky post on this is a good idea. You already did most of the work. Just some summations and some cutting and pasting would teach people a great deal.

I myself am getting up tomorrow and trying to track down some stock rocker arm bolts. (i think tacoma screw will be my best chance, but I will try napa and places like that as well)
I saved all my stock rockers and springs, etc. but I will need the new TTY bolts in order to completly demod the valvetrain. (return to stock springs/rockers)
I am not at all interested in digging into the front of the engine (labor time) nor the price of a double roller as well as the gaskets just to run the 1.9 rockers.
I still have the power adder so the car will still be fun. I would rather spend the 'double roller' money and time on upgradeing system to run 9 psi.... or demod the whole car and sell it (less than 20,000 miles on it) and start looking for an M6 LS1 car.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up with all this stuff. Glad to have you guys around. g. [img]graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img]

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

yeah grayman i have to take my front cover off and replace my timing chain with the double roller too :( :bitesnails:

[grayman]

Well it does seem that the only option once the valvetrain is altered with higher load springs (at any install hight (1.7 or 1.8) with or with out higher duration or lift) that the double roller and ballance gear delete is the only option.
Reading through the 'specs' on the different spring options even the 90# LS6 springs are at risk of causing tensioner damage and they are the very next step in poundage over our stock springs... not to mention the 'tested' resistance of the LS6 springs as being greater than the comp 105's.

I know all about the goodness of a double roller timing set and would love to have it set up on this car.... but if I go that far I would order a cam as well and pop off the intake.

cripes.

Viper, post up on the condition of your dampner when you do the switch. Just curios.

lets see...$300 for a cam, $150 for double roller set, gaskets, anti freeze (should flush out dexcool anyway...) comp 105 springs $125?, High Str push rods $115?, (my retirment accounts are hating me about now)
Then order 12 lunati LS6 retainers $15 and package them with the LS6 springs and 1.9 rockers and sell them used (10,000 miles...maybe $175 if anybody still wants to buy them after my review and posting of 'related/required mods' to safely run the altered valvetrain...)

yea, the rockers and springs are coming out today. I better put the battery charger on the fairlane, stock rocker bolts wont be here for a few days.

[grayman]

Ok, here is a specific question for you 'engine mathmatician/scientist advanced valve train guru types':
Say I remove the 1.9 rockers and return to stock rockers. Say I keep the LS6 springs but swap out the stock retainers for the LS6/Ls1 retainers so as to have the proper 1.8 spring install height... how much pressure do you think that is still putting on the timing tensioner? I know you all want to be responsible but I would, if possible, like to keep the stronger springs as the SC does add some serious power. It may not be needed or it might be an 'ok' idea to have stronger springs in the otherwise stock valvetrain. It is this timing dampner that throws a bug in the works for me to make a decision all by myself. Any thoughts on this?

[grayman]

or...
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=195405186&dealer_id=57404936&car_ye ar=2000&search_type=both&make=PONT&distance=100&mo del=TRANSAM&address=98188&certified=&advanced=&max _price=&bkms=1140898741509&min_price=&end_year=200 2&start_year=1999&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=15

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally posted by grayman:
Ok, here is a specific question for you 'engine mathmatician/scientist advanced valve train guru types':
Say I remove the 1.9 rockers and return to stock rockers. Say I keep the LS6 springs but swap out the stock retainers for the LS6/Ls1 retainers so as to have the proper 1.8 spring install height... how much pressure do you think that is still putting on the timing tensioner? I know you all want to be responsible but I would, if possible, like to keep the stronger springs as the SC does add some serious power. It may not be needed or it might be an 'ok' idea to have stronger springs in the otherwise stock valvetrain. It is this timing dampner that throws a bug in the works for me to make a decision all by myself. Any thoughts on this?

ls6 sprong are fine only the 105 and up spring are cuase problems

plus the balance shaft is like 8-10 pounds withc means les routating mass

[ February 25, 2006, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: viper04af ]

[RedFrk13]

Check out this thread.

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...mode=1&smode=1

[grayman]

Wow, thanks RedFrk13
I am starting to see some light I think.

As regards RedFrk13's club gp thread link showing that even the double roller timing sets show 'stretch'... Those are some very high reving (6800+ rpm) motors they are running. Of course things will stretch, but better to stretch than to break, me thinks. Seeing those stretched double rollers reminded me of 'the old days'. Of course their timing sets stretched. I have never seen one that did not. they are supposed to stretch little or else something WOULD break. Add in the fact that it took 3 pages in that thread to get those guys to fess up that they all have 135+ springs and run their engines to 6800+ rpm while getting groceries with their H/L cammed super charged/turbo charged w bodies and of course their stuff will be breaking and strething.
Only one dude over there seems to have had total timing failure and the dented valves and pistons to prove it but that can happen to anybody. I never notice WHAT kind of cam or springs or rpm he was running either but his cam came loose from a bad bolt or something...not the chain.
So...This all makes me feel not too bad about stretch in double roller timing chain. I wouldn't worry about some stretch.

But, on to the tensioner... I am changing my views on that a bit as well.
First, the tensioner needs to be made out of softer material than the chain or else it would be called a 'brake' or 'interupter.' I saw some posts about people thinking a 'harder' tensioner would be a good idea. i disagree. That thing looks like a honing stone. It is supposed to wear out. It is supposed to be changed along with a new timing set (when the time comes) From experience I would always plan on changing timing chain at 75,000 on a stock car and more frequently on a hot rod...best discretion... so I have long planned doing a timing chain at 50k with this car and its mods. Asside from my stock retainers causing preload on the LS6 springs I am not so worried about the whole dampener ware issue anymore. It is supposed to ware out....under normal conditions and under normal engine design. Start throwing in some high lift cams and long duration and high load springs (or wrong retainers) and on top of that high rpms and it is obvious that the tensioner is not designed for that kind of punishment and it suffers a much reduced service life.

The consensus also seems to be that removing the ballancer gear (or the entire gear and shaft) does not yield that much more vibration. some guys don't seem to notice it at all...others just a little.

Some people were concerned about the double roller gears damaging the timing cover???or oil pump plate or something? I could not tell exactly what they ment but some were considering using TWO gaskets on the timing cover to add a little more room.

I can see my recommendation as being that as long as you are going into the car to do a cam swapp then indeed do a double roller as well. period.

I guess I will be a test car for 1.9 rockers with LS6 springs and ls6 retainers on the stock timing chain and tensioner. I will see how it looks at 50k.

wow, my fingers hurt.

[Kal-El]

^^^i here u man im in the same spot too

[AZ3.8Camaro]

My dampener with LS1 springs was halfway worn out or more with 10K or less on it. BE WORRIED!

The comp 105lb springs would be more suited to someone running higher ratio rockers. LS6 springs will most certainly ruin your dampener. LS1 springs with LS1 retainers should allow more lift, at a similar to stock spring rate and seat pressure. This is what I am switching to.

[grayman]

that does make sense AZ given the specs quoted by ZZP regarding the actual seat pressures of the different springs and such.

I think I will build or by a stethescope and start monitoring the timing chain cover. Soon as I hear as much as a twitch I will dive in and peruse the timing set and have a double roller ready to go.

[AZ3.8Camaro]

Mine sounds like a damn buzzsaw from like 2700RPM on up. Its dead quiet below that though.

[grayman]

Originally posted by AZ3.8Camaro:
Mine sounds like a damn buzzsaw from like 2700RPM on up. Its dead quiet below that though.

Is this with a double roller or the stock single roller and dampner. I ask becuase it is easier than going back through the threads to see if you performed the double roller swap yet. Pardon me, I have forgotten, :rolleyes:

Yea, I might change my intended service interval for the stock timing chain from 50,000 down to 40 or 35K. At 20K now with 10K on the 1.9 rockers/LS6 springs and stock retainers. Ls1 retainers are in the mail. I will take comparison picks of the stock retainers and the ls1 retainers.

[ February 27, 2006, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: grayman ]