new engine with no camshaft!!

[T-Mill]

Has anyone heard of this? There was a show about it on speed channel, and I just caught parts of it, but they were talking about a new engine design that uses solenoids to open and close the valves instead of a camshaft. It is supposed to have a perfect power curve, completely computerized and will make a stock engine go from about 35% efficient with a camshaft to closer to 60% with the solenoids. They were also experimenting with a new metal that has been fused with some sort of ceramic material.

Has anyone else heard of this b/c I didn't have time to watch the whole thing, so I don't even know which automaker was designing it, Sounds like a major advancement though.

[RicE-ter]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

yah heard some stuff like that. how they, car manufacturers, are trying to move away from stuff that drains power or adds weight or heat. like electronically controlled valves, pumps not ran by a belt, etc. but we'l c

[Camaro Dom]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

mmm... its not so much heat/power drain that they're concerned with. its the idea that if you can continuously change the valve timing then you have a greater control over emissions. power is more of a by-product. in my mind, i think if it aint broke, dont fix it. same thing for steer and brake by wire. too much electronics. too much room for stuff to go wrong

[T-Mill]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

but better efficiency = more power, better gas mileage, AND less emissions. I'm all for any advancement we can come by. The internal combustion engine is a very old piece of technology with very few advancements, there've been improved fuel delivery methods, and timing and so forth, but the design is basically the same, other than the rotary engine, there really hasn't been many huge advancements since it's original design.

[Camaro Dom]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

yes tru, but remember, out of anything else, electrical failures are the most common problem in a car BY FAR. old and crude... yeah i guess, and i'll admit that theres alot to gain by using that technology. but a cam driven valve system will outlast the car in almost all cases (unless you start modding). the only thing you gotta watch out for is to change the timing belt. now, suppose our engines had those servos to control the valves. its a PITA to go after spark plug #5. i wouldnt wanna take off my whole intake back there for a dead valve motor. i'll bet one of those motors would cost a pretty penny to replace too. they wouldnt last 150+ miles. like i said, i'll take some reduced fuel economy (it wouldnt be drastic) in exchange for one less thing to worry about. basically, too much cost, not enuf reliablity, not enough benefit to justify it.

[zlexiss]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

yes tru, but remember, out of anything else, electrical failures are the most common problem in a car BY FAR. old and crude... yeah i guess, and i'll admit that theres alot to gain by using that technology. but a cam driven valve system will outlast the car in almost all cases (unless you start modding). the only thing you gotta watch out for is to change the timing belt. now, suppose our engines had those servos to control the valves. its a PITA to go after spark plug #5. i wouldnt wanna take off my whole intake back there for a dead valve motor. i'll bet one of those motors would cost a pretty penny to replace too. they wouldnt last 150+ miles. like i said, i'll take some reduced fuel economy (it wouldnt be drastic) in exchange for one less thing to worry about. basically, too much cost, not enuf reliablity, not enough benefit to justify it.

Man, break out the horse and buggy whip again.. Luddite! :)

[Camaro Dom]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

oh come on... can y see where i'm coming from on this or am i totally off?

[T-Mill]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

I agree with most of what your saying, but electrical failures don't normally occur until later in mileage anyway, and just think about how much money people spend to have a better cam, what if instead of having to buy a new cam and all of the valve train to support it, then pull the motor, install the cam etc etc., what if you could simply change the duration, lift, and timing by pushing some buttons, and just as easily change it back. I think that would be a huge benefit. You could also take advantage of systems like what Chevy is doing now with the V8 to 4-cyl much easier, so the power and gas mimleage could be more drastic than you might think. A camshaft robs quite a bit of power, but no one thinks about it b/c it's one of those things that's simply neccesary you can't just remove it like say- A/C, It requires quite a bit of force to compress a valve spring, and it's compressing multiple springs, that's a significant load on the engine that could be removed, so in order to make the same amount of horse power at the wheels would require much less gas because the load on the engine is significantly less.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just sharing some insight.:)

[edit]
I also want to add that even though I think this could be a good thing, I also want to make clear that I agree with the whole... if it ain't broke don't fix it... I'm a mechanical engineering major, and lately it seems like electronics are replacing a lot of mechanical systems out there. I can't stand electric or hybrid cars, or that whole drive-by-wire bs!!!! my .02

[Camaro Dom]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

yeah, ur right, i never really thought how power a cam takes up. but then again, dont forget, a big part of that load will fall on the alternator. you'll still need springs i think and they'll still have to make a good seal really quickly in the engine. its like high school physics. you spin a generator and its really easy but as soon as you turn on a light bulb in circuit w/ the generator it gets hard to turn. lol my .02
btw, i'm an ME guy too! i go to kettering in flint MI. i dont mind drive by wire cuz if my car wont go, it annonying but at least i'm safe. now, if i'm going 70 mph and my steer by wire or brake by wire dies.... then i'm up $hit's creek.

[Digiphaze]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

I don't think they will add that much load to the alternator, after all, I already have a 700watt system in the back. I highly doubt the electronic solenoids (sp?) will take anywhere near that.

They will probably move over to a 24v system also. The 12v system is showing its age with all the electronics. It takes some thick cables and becomes really ineficient to push low voltage high amperage DC current around the car.

[camaroman1181]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

been using these in F1 for years.. its how they make those engines scream to over 19k rpms. good for power and efficiency? i'd prolly say so. good for the shadetree mechanic? hell no. And as far as lasting, I dont beleive that they currently can make a solenoid last 100k miles yet. Probably one of the main things keeping this technology back. Will this one day be used in production vehicles? probably.. I just dont see it happening for a while.

[cam98aro]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

they have been playing with that stuff since the 60's

[Camaro Dom]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

I don't think they will add that much load to the alternator, after all, I already have a 700watt system in the back. I highly doubt the electronic solenoids (sp?) will take anywhere near that.

They will probably move over to a 24v system also. The 12v system is showing its age with all the electronics. It takes some thick cables and becomes really ineficient to push low voltage high amperage DC current around the car.

i'm not completely familiar with the whole thing but my logic is telling me that they're gonna need really strong springs to open and close the valve as fast as it needs to. if you've never taken an engine apart, all ya gotta know is that you can put all your weight on those springs and they dont move much. i'll bet it takes more than 700 watts just to move a few of those things at idle, let alone WOT. multiply that times 12 valves for us, 16 for an 8 or as much as 32 on the northstar (i'm assuming thats what they're gonna test it on cuz caddies always get to be guinea pigs for some reason) and you have a HUGE amount of power. thats gonna have to come from the engine, convert to electrical energy, then convert back to mechanical. as already stated, i dont see it happening feasibly in production cars anytime soon. unless i'm totally looking at this wrong.

[v6superbird420]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

I cant remember which company it is but either Porshe, Mercedes Benz, BMW already has this in one of there cars. I think it is BMW though. And to be honest with you i have heard some of the HP number they are getting with this setup and all i have to say is :drool:

[Nikos95]

Re: new engine with no camshaft!!

Heh technology is a great thing after it has its quirks worked out. Ferrari and I think a few other companies actually designed and built a plastic composite of some sort engine block that produced good power years back, the only issue was the motor only lasted around 75-100k miles and the entire block needed to be replaced. I read somewhere that the idea is comming back and they are trying a new type and idea. So who knows what they have in stock for us in the comming years. :)