Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

[Pewter02Camaro]

Well i got done doing my head swap on my '02 3.8 about a month ago and all was well until about a week ago when i started to notive the car was starting to burn oil, and smoke on startup, it has progressivly gotten worse over time. The car never burned any oil at all before the swap and when i had the heads off the cylider walls looked good, and so forth. After i started driving the car it seemed to get worse to the point that after it sat it would make a small cloud of blue smoke on startup, and would puff now and then when taking off from a stop. The heads that i put on the car were stock ones i had some work done to, ie #105 springs, valve job, new seals and so on. The guy that did it for me did not replace the guides as far as i know. I have not seen any loss of power or driveability. And the car actually just dynoed 288rwhp and 325 rwtq on saturday. I figure it's because the guides are either worn out or a couple seals arn't on properly. I pulled all the plugs and 2 out of the six had oil on the plug threads. i was like WTF?! all the others looked brand new. the ones that were oily were the front and back plugs on the passenger side, but not the middle and all the drivers side looked great. Anyway like the title says trying to get an idea of whats wrong.

[flamingchicken]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

seems to me that the only explanation would be seals not sealing...the pass side valve cover is easy to take off, see if you can tell if the seals are floating at the top of the valve? i had the problem of when i would take left turns i would blow a big wad, and when i pulled my heads off and took my valve spring retainers off i found a broken guide. speaking of which, do you notice it on hard left turns perhaps?

[steddy]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

I would also check the seals, but let me ask this: Are you running a full roller rocker with, I'd presume, a bigger cam? As I was building mine, I had the chance to think about the possibility that stock rockers may push on the valve at an angle, causing wear on the guides, but the seals would explain the small amount of time it took.

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Still running the stock rockers but never had a problem till I swapped heads. Had my gt1 cam with stock heads till now.

[steddy]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Yeah, then I'd look at the seals.

[Mad Max]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

I rebuilt a Pontiac 400 for a customer including a valve job. The machine shop supposedly had replaced the guides by drilling and pressing in silicone bronze replacements. I also requested teflon valve seals. Well, you know that the car burned oil (of course). I did a leak down test and no loss at the rings. Soooo, I pulled the heads and checked them out. The shop had knurled the guides and put in crap seals. Think I was pissed?
Moral of story: DIY unless you don't have the equipment. Check the work when you get the heads back. Take out a few valves and see if there is any play in the guides. Check the seals. The best is to upgrade to viton seals.
I HATE doing work twice - particularly if it's someone else's fault. The shop did the heads over, but I lost the time and had to beef with them to pay for a head set.
The 3.8 is a pretty tough engine, it's umlikely that you wiped the rings. If you have access to a leak down tester, you can check the rings with out taking anything apart, at least you will verify that the heads are crap. If you have the tools, (die grinder and bur) match port the intake/exhaust ports while the heads are off (again). That can be good for up to 5 HP, and doesn't take much time.
Sounds like you have a seal/valve guide problem. End of story. :cry: Poo...

[ssms5411]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

When you swapped heads were they 98+ heads, because when I did my rebuild 6 years ago I snapped a valve guide off completely after a 100 miles of driving, got it replaced again and now I have another spare set of heads with the good casting #9741 I think they are. pre 99 heads had flaws in them. if you have 99+ heads then I would just check the valve guides, they might have lifted off the stem and are just moving with the valve.

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

thanks for all he input guys! i am gonna try and do a leak down test here in the next few das or so. I figure if i did end up wiping the rings on those two cylinders i will have the block machined and so on and just rebuild it. If it shows that all my rings are good the guy that did the work for me already said he would make things right. I'm just bummed that the car will be un drivable again for god knows how long. oh well.

[Mad Max]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Air tools = 3 hours to take off the heads. Send them out, 2-3 days. Re install = 4 hours. Less than a week. Yo. Especially if you just put them on. You'll remember all of the PIAs and tricks to get at the bolts. :naughty:

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Haven't done a compression test or leak down test yet but it looks like all signs are pointing to bad rings in cylinders 2 and 6. So if that is the case do i just sell the car, get it rebuilt, or do an LS1 swap? Just trying to get an idea so i have a plan if S#&T hits the fan. gonna go out in the garage and pull of the valve cover and take a look at the valve seals.

[Mad Max]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Uh, first thing is don't panic.
Figure out the problem and work out a plan. LS 6 conversion = $$$$$$ but make Camaro mucho fast. Rebuild = $$$$ but you can add camshaft and other fast stuff. Fix problem = $$ and you will still be styling in your Camaro as it used to be. Sell Camaro = what next?? A Honda???
It may be something as simple as valve seals, which you can change without taking the engine out or removing heads (special J tool needed and an air compressor with 125 or more PSI and the spark plug fitting for air hose) or the next worst is bad valve guides = remove heads and shoot machinist who did work. :cry: Make sure he corrects head problem before death :spank:.
I bet you don't have bad rings. BTW, oil on spark plug threads doesn't neccessarily mean those are the bad cyls. Usually serious carbon build up on the electrodes is a good indicator. If the electrodes are clean and tannish white, that is a good sign.
An afterthought... I think I remember reading that you have an aftermarket cam, yes? check for spring coil bind if it is over .500 lift. Sometimes that can make a mess.
100% of the time: anticipation of the job is more work than actually doing the job. You've done it once, that was just practice. Now you can cruise through it much faster this time. :burn:

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

Well myself and a buddy of mine ran a compressin test on thursday. all my cylinders came back reading from 175-180 wet or dry it didn't matter. So thats a good thing. Next step is taking of the passanger side head and taking it back to the machine shop. "Sigh" O well at least i don't have to buy more head bolts cuz i bought ARP head studs last time. maybe i'll tell him he owes me a head gasket and lower intake gaskets along with a plenum gasket...

[ssms5411]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

I would def. get what you can from them since , your using your own time trying to figure out with your car, I would ask for both head gaskets and intake gaskets and money for your time.

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

I would def. get what you can from them since , your using your own time trying to figure out with your car, I would ask for both head gaskets and intake gaskets and money for your time.

At this point thats pretty much what i am thinking. the only problem is that the guy that did the work for me has a been a friend for quite some time now. i guess if he is really my friend he will make all this right.

[ssms5411]

Re: Worn Valve guides or bad seals?

^ Usually they will, the mechanic that did my rebuild in 03', with the forged pistons,cam etc. did my rebuild, drove about 100 miles, started smoking bad. Brought it back and the #1 valve guide broke off from the head. Even though the heads were sent out and milled and checked , so he put on a new head and swapped over my stuff to it for about $200 which was fair since it wasn't his fault about the head, machine shops fault and it has been perfect all these years with 10-11 PSI from the powerdyne for 3-4 years and 125 shots of nitrous about 10-15 bottles, and will see how it takes the turbo once installed. Good luck.