Does any company(s) make an aftermarket flywheels for the 3800?

[Riles]

When you say you are losing torqure, you aren't thinking about what you are saying. You said that since the engine spins faster, you lose torque... so you are basically implying that the engine would fire through the rpm band faster.

I don't know if you looked down at your tach while racing, but if the rpms go up faster, then YOU are going faster.

An argument against an aluminum flywheel is like an argument against an aluminum driveshaft- do they make you lose torque too?

The only thing a heavier flywheel would do is cause greater resistance to movement (which is a bad thing).

[Jerriko]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Riles:
When you say you are losing torqure, you aren't thinking about what you are saying. You said that since the engine spins faster, you lose torque... so you are basically implying that the engine would fire through the rpm band faster.

I don't know if you looked down at your tach while racing, but if the rpms go up faster, then YOU are going faster.

An argument against an aluminum flywheel is like an argument against an aluminum driveshaft- do they make you lose torque too?

The only thing a heavier flywheel would do is cause greater resistance to movement (which is a bad thing).<hr></blockquote>

?
I think you guys need to do more research into this. What I am saying isn't something new. Aluminum and steel flywheels have been around for decades. Go ask someone has a motor puts out a lot of torque. Big motors with torque have a low power band. You wouldn't want your motor to spin in the higher rpms. Motors generate the most torque at lower rpms. Putting that entire argument aside, steel and cast iron flywheels are stronger than aluminum. I need strength instead of weight reduction.

[blackfire99]

wow, i didn't know that it could change the output of the engines power...oh, it can't, it will still make the same torque/hp as before, just a little quicker...not a tough physics poblem...just some common since...

it will only allow your engine to rev easier, not actually change the power range...think...

[Ian]

ok Jerrikio, even though i didnt need to, i just talked to someone i know who is VERY intelligent when it comes to cars....

he used to have a n/a RX7, and as you know, rotaries have no torque. he put an aluminum flywheel in it, and said it was the best thing he ever did for the car. it was faster, revved a lot quicker, and overall felt like he had more power.

so if 10lbs from your rotating assembly is .1 in the 1/4 mile, why the hell do you want a friggin heavy flywheel?

it makes no sense at all!

lighter flywheel=faster revving motor=more power quicker

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

beh.. you people are funny sometimes..

you will make more power with a lightened flywheel.. as some have indirectly said..

the bottom line is less rotating mass in your drivetrain will make it more effiecent.. causing less "drivetrain loss".. ever wonder where drivetrain loss comes from?? the extra weight of your drivetrain!!

NOW!! i dont think you will technicly "lose" torque.. but it may seem that way.. because with a lighter flywheel the car will be harder to get moving.. simply becuase it dosent have the rotational enteria the heavier one did..

but all it will do is make it a little herder to drive and not stall.. so this leads one to rev higher and more often slowly slip the clutch in.. this will lead to more clutch wear.. soooo..

in conclusion..

light flywheel = more power, less loss to drivetrain

however a little more abuse/wear on the clutch..

[Jerriko]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blackfire99:
wow, i didn't know that it could change the output of the engines power...oh, it can't, it will still make the same torque/hp as before, just a little quicker...not a tough physics poblem...just some common since...

it will only allow your engine to rev easier, not actually change the power range...think...<hr></blockquote>

?
That makes no sense. How would it not change the power range? Haven't any of you seen the printouts of a dyno run. You should notice that as rpms increase, torque decrease. If you have a motor with more torque, you would not run high rpms and vice versa. Torque and engine speed are indirectly related, that's physics. The most torque produce from an engine is at lower rpms. A heavier flywheel will get the rpms down thereby producing more torque. Hell, an electric motor produces the most torque at 0 rpm! This statement proves what I am saying,
"he used to have a n/a RX7, and as you know, rotaries have no torque. he put an aluminum flywheel in it, and said it was the best thing he ever did for the car. it was faster, revved a lot quicker, and overall felt like he had more power."
Yes, on a motor you WANT to rev to higher rpms, you would not want the heavier flywheels. But that's not what I am looking for, now is it.

"NOW!! i dont think you will technicly "lose" torque.. but it may seem that way.. because with a lighter flywheel the car will be harder to get moving.. simply becuase it dosent have the rotational enteria the heavier one did.."
And yes, you do lose torque for just this reason. I know this. I have been drag racing cars with my dad for years. We played with this idea in the 80's. We ran blown big blocks in Vega's and the steel flywheels were always quicker than the aluminum ones. Plain and simple.

[Lord_Verminaard]

No no no no.... You could put a 500lb flywheel on the 3800, and while the car probably wouldnt be able to move at all on it's own power, the powerband would be EXACTLY the same. ALL engines, be diesel, gas, turbo, SC, whatever, will produce the exact same torque and horsepower number at 5252 rpm. It makes no difference how heavy or light the flywheel is. A lighter flywheel will make the drivetrain more efficient, giving the engine an easier time spinning up the RPM's. It will NOT reduce torque. The only way you can reduce torque is by shoving a restrictor plate over the throttle body.

And, not that this is on topic, but how can an electric motor produce the most torque at 0 rpm? The measurement of torque is a measure of rotational force, and to measure that, there has to be rotational movement.

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

[Jerriko]

Why, why, why?
Torque is indirectly related to engine speed (rpms), not vehicle speed.
Installing a lighter flywheel would decrease the available torque not because the flywheel is lighter but because the engine moves to higher rpms quicker. Just look at the engine tech page of the this website the maximum torque for both the 3800 and 3.4 happen at a lower rpm than the maximum hp. A lighter flywheel would allow the engine to spin more quickly going through the power band for torque. Both engines already produce more torque than hp. Why wouldn't you want to use that?
And to the electric motor, has anyone here used a torque wrench before? What do you think requires more torque?
-a. the spinning rotation of the bolt
-b. torquing the bolt to 100 ft/lbs
B. cause more resistance is required to tighten the bolt than it take to spin it. You can try this on any bolt. Rotary torque is always less than the tightening torque. It doesn't matter what the tightening torque is, the rotary torque will never exceed it. But for some reason it does, that's because your tightening it. This is all general physics I learned my first year in college. Look, I wasn't trying to start a debate about this. I just wanted to find a company that made steel flywheels so I didn't have to use a cast iron one.

[Jerriko]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord_Verminaard:


And, not that this is on topic, but how can an electric motor produce the most torque at 0 rpm? The measurement of torque is a measure of rotational force, and to measure that, there has to be rotational movement.

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49<hr></blockquote>

Here's the definition out of my lab books:
"a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion "
Torque is indirectly related to engine speed but directly related to resistance. If you increase the resistance, in theory, you increase the amount of torque. This has been proven also with the electric and hybrid vehicles.

[Lord_Verminaard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerriko:
Installing a lighter flywheel would decrease the available torque not because the flywheel is lighter but because the engine moves to higher rpms quicker.

And if the engine moves to higher RPM's quicker, you are going faster, plain and simple. Keeping all gearing the same, a car with a 20lb flywheel racing an exact same car with a 150lb flywheel- which one would win? The car with 150lb flywheel because it spends more time in the lower RPM range? NO! It would take it much longer to run through the gears.


Just look at the engine tech page of the this website the maximum torque for both the 3800 and 3.4 happen at a lower rpm than the maximum hp. A lighter flywheel would allow the engine to spin more quickly going through the power band for torque. Both engines already produce more torque than hp. Why wouldn't you want to use that?


You said it right there- the engine would spin more quickly going through the power band. That equals faster car. That means that the car is using more of it's torque to move the car than to overcome the inertia of the flywheel.

I noticed on your website that you have an underdrive pully. Does that give you less torque too? A lighter flywheel does the EXACT same thing, period.

Believe what you will, but I'm done trying to explain this any further. You would notice the effects of a lighter flywheel on a car with less low-end torque, like a Honda over the broad torque curve of our 3800's, but whatever the case may be the car will be faster with less inertia to overcome.

And that's the way it is. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

[LARRYfireBIRD33]

Jerriko, I don't know you so I won't be a d*ck, but u should really re-think and re-read everything that is written. Your point is completely wrong. Take a look at "Lord_Verminard"s first reply. The quicker you get thought your RPMs, the quicker you are going. The "POWER BAND" as you so eloquitely put it, does not change at all with a different flywheel. The Shift point doesn't change at all with a flywheel. The only thing that changes is how quickly you get thought the RPMs and shift into your next gear. Lighter drivetrain = fast car. Simple fact of life.

[Jerriko]

Ya know what, I don't care anymore. For whatever reason that I guess I will keep to myself, I am looking for a steel flywheel for a 3.4L.

[Ian]

this is the funniest post ever.

Lord_Verminaard had the point plain and clear.

I will sum it up for everyone:

An aluminum flywheel will not change your powerband at all, only allow you to get to it a lot quicker. It will not reduce torque, it will not increase torque, it will only cause your torque powerband to be used a lot quicker.

Quicker torque powerband leads to quicker 60' times, and getting to the HP powerband leads to quicker 1/4 mile times.

Any professional drag car uses an aluminum flywheel, ANY! There is a reason. They are better.


...i think you need to sit down and think about physics for a little bit in a quiet room

[white96six]

where do you get the aluminum flywheel? how much is it? I am needing a new cluth so I might as well throw the fly wheel on while I am in there. I will do a before and after track run and let you know. I am sure someone else has already done this but I will let you know.

[Jerriko]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ian:
this is the funniest post ever.


Any professional drag car uses an aluminum flywheel, ANY! There is a reason. They are better.


...i think you need to sit down and think about physics for a little bit in a quiet room<hr></blockquote>

Ok, that's torn it. They may use aluminum flywheels but do you know what the weight of those flywheels are? They are just as heavy as steel flywheels. Drag racers need heavier flywheels to help with the takeoff. The only problem with heavy flywheels is that they take longer to slow down and longer to accelerate, initially. Once the rotating mass is moving, it stays moving. That's the whole point. Heavy flywheels would not be a good idea for daily driving since it takes longer to accelerate and decelerate. It's funny, I read all of the responses from everyone and for the most part I agree with everything regarding high revving motors. But for the last time, THAT'S NOT WHAT I AM REFFERING THIS SUBJECT TOO!