Centerforce vs Spec

[imported_admin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper04af:
and i was only giving the SPECS www.ammperformance.com had on there site, if they are wrong im sorry for the missleading info, so i guess i need a stage 5 then<hr></blockquote>

Their site is wrong. Besides, I've heard some serious **** about them ripping customers off. You should stay with reputable vendors unless you enjoy having your money stolen.

Regarding torque... if the stock clutch can handle 225 ft-lbs, and the Dual Friction can handle 90% more, then the Dual Friction is rated at 427 ft-lbs. However, the stock clutch is not rated at 225 ft-lbs, it is rated at significantly more. Let's say you have at least 25 ft-lbs of breathing room before the stock clutch starts to go. That means if it can hold 250 ft-lbs, the Dual Friction can hold 475 ft-lbs.

Dual Friction is just as strong if not stronger than the Stage 3. And if anyone on this site gets anywhere near that power level, a slipping clutch is going to be the LAST of your worries. The T5 will blow out long before a Dual Friction or Stage 3 will...

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stefan:


Their site is wrong. Besides, I've heard some serious **** about them ripping customers off. You should stay with reputable vendors unless you enjoy having your money stolen.

Regarding torque... if the stock clutch can handle 225 ft-lbs, and the Dual Friction can handle 90% more, then the Dual Friction is rated at 427 ft-lbs. However, the stock clutch is not rated at 225 ft-lbs, it is rated at significantly more. Let's say you have at least 25 ft-lbs of breathing room before the stock clutch starts to go. That means if it can hold 250 ft-lbs, the Dual Friction can hold 475 ft-lbs.

Dual Friction is just as strong if not stronger than the Stage 3. And if anyone on this site gets anywhere near that power level, a slipping clutch is going to be the LAST of your worries. The T5 will blow out long before a Dual Friction or Stage 3 will...<hr></blockquote>

really thanks for the warning

so with my mods coming what clutch should i get, im going to make that 500 RWHP goal as close as i can, what one would you go with???? im putting the clutch in while the motor is out of the car. hopefully my dad gets the motor out next week

[imported_admin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper04af:
so with my mods coming what clutch should i get, im going to make that 500 RWHP goal as close as i can, what one would you go with????<hr></blockquote>

The Borg-Warner T-5 is only rated up to 325 ft-lbs. If you are actually going to be pushing 400+ ft-lbs you'll need a new transmission. Either a Borg-Warner T-56 6-speed, a Tremec TKO 5-speed, or a beefed up automatic. Borg-Warner is actually owned by Tremec but they still use the old name.

I'm at work at the moment but when I get home I'll dig up some info I have on the Tremec TKO and the BW T-56. Price was around $1800 plus a Ram clutch that supports 700-ish ft-lbs. I have this upgrade on the back burner for the day when I finally blow my tranny out. (Not looking forward to that day but I know its coming...)

In the meantime, Spec Stage 3 or Centerforce Dual Friction... both very strong, both very popular, both excellent clutches.

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Stefan ]</p>

[viper98885]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stefan:
Their site is wrong. Besides, I've heard some serious **** about them ripping customers off. You should stay with reputable vendors unless you enjoy having your money stolen.<hr></blockquote>

Stefan,
What exactly have you heard about my company "ripping customers off?" You are correct that the specs on the site for the V6 clutches is wrong. I didn't see that until it was now brought to my attention. If you have some kind of problem with me or my company, bring it straight to me instead of talking ****.

Talk to plenty of people on this board, they will tell you that they have had great experiences through my company. If you want to listen to "the almighty" then you are more than welcome to. For some reason, he seems to have some kind of problem with me that he won't lay on the table.

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stefan:



Regarding holding power, the Dual Friction is about the same as the Stage 3. No V6 on this site is ever going to produce enough power to cause either one to slip.<hr></blockquote>

You need to stay more up to date ;)

I myself have destroyed a CF DF clutch quite badly just a few months ago, I have video of it slipping HORRIBLY plus I have some witnesses on this site that experienced it. Turbo TQ ownzjoo. The clutch would hold great on the launch and pull 1.7 60 foots but as soon as I hit into boost it would quite simply give away.

I have since swapped to a Spec Stage 4 and if I could do it again I would go stage 5. I wanted a brutal clutch, stage 4 is pretty streetable.

Now, I rely on AMM for most of my parts and do a LOT of business with them, they are great and I recomemnd it highly. Josh is a great guy to deal with. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Tiago ]</p>

[AZ3.8Camaro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stefan:

Regarding holding power, the Dual Friction is about the same as the Stage 3. No V6 on this site is ever going to produce enough power to cause either one to slip.<hr></blockquote>

Here's Mine!

I agree 100% with Stefan though, my centerforce held a 100 shot on nitto drags and didn't slip a BIT.

Mine was defective somehow, but it didn't have ANY hotspots or any signs of slippage, it just broke. This won't happen to yours... it was DEFECTIVE.

Centerforce was shocked by it, and sent me a brand new one totally free, and rebuilt my pressure plate. They are a totally awesome company that totally stands behind their products.

That clutch holds hard, and is very streetable.

[imported_admin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tiago:
I myself have destroyed a CF DF clutch quite badly just a few months ago, I have video of it slipping HORRIBLY plus I have some witnesses on this site that experienced it. Turbo TQ ownzjoo. The clutch would hold great on the launch and pull 1.7 60 foots but as soon as I hit into boost it would quite simply give away.<hr></blockquote>

Does not change the fact that Centerforce has been in the clutch business a lot longer than Spec. They hold more patents on their technology than any other clutch company. You broke one. I have broken many "high performance" "unbreakable" parts. Does this mean they are bad? NO. It means you had a fluke.

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Stefan ]</p>

[imported_admin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
Stefan,
What exactly have you heard about my company "ripping customers off?" You are correct that the specs on the site for the V6 clutches is wrong. I didn't see that until it was now brought to my attention. If you have some kind of problem with me or my company, bring it straight to me instead of talking ****.<hr></blockquote>

We have received several complaints via e-mail and I have been watching your posts for some time now.

You are not a paying sponsor here. Yet you advertise your company in just about every post you make. You brag about being the owner of a performance parts distributor in your sig. In every post where someone is asking about a product, you shoot down the idea and say "go with this brand instead". Conveniently, that brand is the brand your company carries. You also shoot down our sponsors here and attempt to say things like "you can get that cheaper elsewhere" or "this brand is cheaper/better".

If you want to pay like any other sponsor, fine. But you're not going to get advertising here for free. That's called unethical, its stealing business from our sponsors, and frankly its grounds for us to ban you right now. Even if you were to offer to pay, I don't know if I would want you to sponsor us. We only offer fine, upstanding businesses to sponsor us--your behavior here so far has hardly qualified you.

So don't you dare get the nerve to tell me I'm "talking ****". :mad:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
Talk to plenty of people on this board<hr></blockquote>

Yes, when I get home from the office I'll go ahead and post IN THE LOUNGE some of the complaint letters I've received about your company and not delivering product.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
If you want to listen to "the almighty" then you are more than welcome to. For some reason, he seems to have some kind of problem with me that he won't lay on the table.<hr></blockquote>

Furthermore, insulting the administrator of a website where you advertise for free isn't going to get you very far. :mad:

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Stefan ]</p>

[viper98885]

I have always made it a point to keep from advertising on here in any way other than in my signature. Also, I DO NOT, in any way, post that I can get parts cheaper than any of the sponsors. I know the rules of advertising and posting that I can get parts for people and I have not violated that in any way.

Also, if you are getting complaints from people, you should forward them to me or send them my way. I do not know why they would send them to you considering that AMM and Camarov6/FirebirdV6.com have nothing to do with each other.

I will be more than happy to delete the line from my sig that has the link to the AMM site if that will make you happy.

I WILL, however, continue to put my input in as far as what my PERSONAL opinion is of some products. This is not to get people to buy what we carry. For instance, I carry both Centerforce and SPEC clutches, but I would tell people to go with the SPEC. I am not a fan of CF in any way and have not had good luck with their parts. This is my personal opinion.

"We only offer fine, upstanding businesses to sponsor us--your behavior here so far has hardly qualified you." What behavior are you referencing?!? It always seems like whenever someone speaks against your opinion, you get offended and threaten to ban. Keep an open mind man. If you don't like what's in the sig, or what I say in posts, let me know and I will be happy to edit them.

This could be handled in a much more civil manner. If you would communicate with me ahead of time or if you don't like something that you see, then I will take care of it. It would be a lot better than badmouthing me or my company.

[Tyler]

I can't think of anything nice to say so I'm not going to say it.

anyways.. i got the spec stage 3. have heard nothing but good from people who have them.

i will be getting it installed shortly to let you guys know.

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Stefan ]</p>

[imported_admin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
I have always made it a point to keep from advertising on here in any way other than in my signature. Also, I DO NOT, in any way, post that I can get parts cheaper than any of the sponsors. I know the rules of advertising and posting that I can get parts for people and I have not violated that in any way.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, yes, you have violated those rules. But more importantly, let me ask you this: our rates are very reasonable. Of course, you would not know this because you NEVER even e-mailed us asking about them. Why would you bother going through all that trouble and not just become official like everyone else???

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
Also, if you are getting complaints from people, you should forward them to me or send them my way. I do not know why they would send them to you considering that AMM and Camarov6/FirebirdV6.com have nothing to do with each other.<hr></blockquote>

These complaints have actually come to our attention earlier this week. We had planned on having a meeting this weekend to discuss what to do. Your posts in this thread, however, have accelerated that.

And that statement is not true. The administrators of FirebirdV6.com/CamaroV6.com have an ethical responsibility to act in the best interests of their sponsors and members. When sponsors and/or members contact us about something that takes place on this board, we do something about it. Do we have to legally? No. Per the Telecommunications Decency Act of 1996, we are not legally responsible for the actions of others on our message board. But do we have to it ethically? Yes.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
I will be more than happy to delete the line from my sig that has the link to the AMM site if that will make you happy.<hr></blockquote>

Please do so immediately.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
I WILL, however, continue to put my input in as far as what my PERSONAL opinion is of some products. This is not to get people to buy what we carry. For instance, I carry both Centerforce and SPEC clutches, but I would tell people to go with the SPEC. I am not a fan of CF in any way and have not had good luck with their parts. This is my personal opinion.<hr></blockquote>

Incorrect. You are an agent for a business. What you say here is no longer considered your personal opinion, it is your professional opinion. Whether you like it or not, your business is responsible for your actions--particularly when you have "owner, XXX company" in your profile and a direct link to that company's site in your sig. What you say here can and will be construed by members here as the professional opinion of your company. That is the way business works. Don't say "but that's just my opinion", that excuse does not work. You're a businessman now, start acting like it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
What behavior are you referencing?!? It always seems like whenever someone speaks against your opinion, you get offended and threaten to ban. Keep an open mind man.<hr></blockquote>

"It always seems like...". See? Now you're jumping all over me, trying to take the offensive. It will not work. Business rules are NOT "my opinion", they are the rules. Obey them or leave.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by viper98885:
This could be handled in a much more civil manner. If you would communicate with me ahead of time or if you don't like something that you see, then I will take care of it. It would be a lot better than badmouthing me or my company.<hr></blockquote>

Now you're saying I'm not civil... another unprofessional statement. This should never have come up in the first place. If you had either registered as a sponsor or been ethical and KEPT YOUR MOUTH SHUT about your business on this sponsor-paid site, this would never have been an issue.

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stefan:


Does not change the fact that Centerforce has been in the clutch business a lot longer than Spec. They hold more patents on their technology than any other clutch company. You broke one. I have broken many "high performance" "unbreakable" parts. Does this mean they are bad? NO. It means you had a fluke.

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: Stefan ]<hr></blockquote>


I didn't break it, in fact it grabbed good as shown by my 60 ft. It just plain couldn't hold the power that I am pushing. So it slipped, plain and simple. You said noone here would ever do it when its already been done... CFDF did not hold the power. Spec does.

[imported_admin]

I'm saying you got a defective unit. Did you take it up with Centerforce? How many miles did you have on the clutch when it started to slip?

[viper98885]

Stefan,
I am simply saying that some of the things that you say come off as offensive, or that you are taking an offensive stand on certain things. Whether you are or not is for each person to interpret. For instance, "You're a businessman now, start acting like it." comes off as offensive in my mind.

Also, I am not trying to jump all over you in any way. I understand that you have your rules of advertising and for that reason, I will delete the line from my signature. However, I HAVE contacted TealV6 in the past concerning advertising costs. I do not know if that info was passed on to you, but I have inquired.

This is my personal account and will especially be once the line is deleted from the sig. I would understand your point of view if my user name was AMMPerformance, but it is not.

I also did not try to imply that you are not civil. Please do not take it that way. I am simply saying that this could be handled in a much more civil manner.

Edit: Also, let me add that if there was a problem with my signature line or any of the posts that I have put down, I wish that you would have contacted me in the past instead of letting things blow up like this. You all know my E-mail address and are obviously open to letting someone know if they have broken the rules. If the future, let's handle it before it gets out of hand as it has here.

[ February 11, 2004: Message edited by: viper98885 ]</p>

[98Silver6]

I read that new clutches need 400 - 500 miles brake in period.

Now I'm Not going to be pushing 500hp anytime soon.
[img]graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]