Do I need an Amp/Sub?

[staticpike]

I'm trying to build a decent system for use in my car. I'm not needing top-show quality, or a system that a person 3 cars away can hear the thumping. All I want is good quality and the ability to hear it (high's & lows) with the T-tops out.

The only thing I've purchased so far is 4 replacement speakers (my car only has 4, I don't have the 2 in the rear hatch area). I've purchased the Pioneer TS-G1647 for the front and Pioneer TS-A1767 for the rear. I haven't bought the head unit yet, but it looks like I'm wanting to get the Pioneer DEH-P8500MP for my head unit. With this combination, will I be pulling decent quality for a while, or should I invest in a sub to pull these speakers?

I appreciate any opinions, since I'm not very handy with the specifics on the car audio stuff.

[ December 03, 2003: Message edited by: staticpike ]</p>

[WickEdSix9838]

i have the same stock stereo as you but what ive done is a Alpine 1.5 DIN deck(dont remember PN), stock speakers, then i added 1 10" JL W-0 sub w/the JL 250/1 amp and it sounds really good, its right on the edge of the bass covering up the factory speakers w/some rap songs but all u gotta do is turn the bass down...also you cant hardly hear any bass outside of the car accept for the rear lights rattling a lil when its turned up...w/the replacement speakers u have i'd recommend getting a sub because the highs will probably be too much alone...

[ December 02, 2003: Message edited by: WickEdSix9838 ]</p>

[96firebird311]

A subwoofer is a vital part to a complete system. Think about adding atleast a single 10" powered with atleast 200WRMS. Also, thought about putting an amp on those Pioneer's as well? Maybe a single 5 channel amp to power the whole system?

[ December 02, 2003: Message edited by: 96firebird311 ]</p>

[staticpike]

I've thought about an amp yes, and that's kinda what I'm asking about for. If the answer was "nope, you'll be fine for what you want" then I had nothing to worry about. But the last 2 posts seem like I'd need a small something or other. Probably a single 10" milhouse, so it's hidden and I can take it out while racing at the track.

My question is then, if I need an amp, which one and how big by how much? This is where all the impedance and bridging come in so I'm at a loss...

Also, can I run an amp on those replacement Pioneer Speakers? I thought they'd be maxed out with the head unit and everything...?

Recommendations are appreciated!

[96firebird311]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by staticpike:
My question is then, if I need an amp, which one and how big by how much? This is where all the impedance and bridging come in so I'm at a loss...

Also, can I run an amp on those replacement Pioneer Speakers? I thought they'd be maxed out with the head unit and everything...?<hr></blockquote>

All speakers have an impedence ratings of the voice coil. For car audio use, it's usually 4 ohms for all 6 1/2" and smaller. It is common for subwoofers to have two (sometimes more) voice coils. So if a subwoofer has an impedence rating of 2+2, this means that it has dual 2 ohm voice coils. This info is very important when choosing an amp. Your amp will have it's power output ratings labeled by impedence rating.
I.E.
200WRMSx1@2ohms

This means that the amps produces 200 watts continously out a single channel into a 2 ohm load. With a 4 ohm load, you will only be getting half the power. So you want to make sure that you not using the above mentioned subwoofer! A dual 2 ohm subwoofer can be wired in series for a 4 ohm load or in parallel for a 1 ohm load. You'd be out of luck with this sub/amp match. This is why it is important to pay attention to which model subwoofer and amp you buy.

When you bridge a 2-channel amp into a single channel, you are just using the power from both channels to power your subs. However, you are now forced to run your amp at a higher impedence to prevent it from going into protection. A rule of thumb is 4 ohms when using a 2-channel amp in bridged mode. This is why I always recommend a mono (single channel) amp for subwoofer use. Easy to install and stable to 2 ohms....sometimes even 1 ohm. The JBL BP600.1 produces 600WRMSx1@2ohms.... all for $175. One of the best deals around now. The 300.1 can be had for $125. Now pick yourself out a nice matched subwoofer such as the Alpine Type-R or the Elemental Designs e10K.44 and you'll be good to go.

Next, the box. You mentioned the milhouse so I assume you've visited subthump.com. So why the milhouse? Why not the stealth box? I have never owned one, but have heard that they are easily removed for the track. Plus it's costs half as much. It's up to you. If I had the money to blow and had to choose between the two, I'd choose the milhouse due to the extra air volume.

Next, note on amping the Pioneers. Why two different model speakers for front and rear? And why the better ones in the rear? And maxed out? No way. All aftermarket head units are measured in peak power. Most only output around 25WRMS at full tilt. I recommend atleast 40WRMS per speaker. You could pick up a matching JBL P80.4 for $120.

And good sites to buy your wiring:
www.ebay.com cheapest on everything
www.knukonceptz.com good quality at a good price, plus super fast shipping
www.darvex.com sells alot of stinger gear. Very happy with my deals in the past.

[staticpike]

96firebird311,

Thanks for the good rookie info! I appreciate that. I'm looking into the JBL P80.4 now to run those factory replacements and giving consideration for box/amp/sub package. I'm choosing the milhouse over the stealth since I'm relocating the battery to the trunk for weight distribution.

On the wires, I'm going to need power cabling, an RCA patch from the head to the amp, and some decent wiring to go from the amp to sub - is there anything I else I should consider with wiring?

[96firebird311]

If you have a little more money, you could consider the Kicker combo of the KX600.4 and KX600.1. Then you would be giving your 6 1/2"s 75WRMS a piece. Kicker also makes a KX400.1 if you don't need 600W to power your single sub. Could save a few bucks and still have more power for the 6 1/2"s. Get what I'm saying? Your decision of course, just a note. ;)

And maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but where are you relocating the battery to? Exactly where? Because subthump makes both a driver and passenger side stealth box. Again, just letting you know. Your decision. ;)

As far wiring a pair of amps, you'll need 3 sets of RCAs to run from the head unit to the amps. 2 sets for the 4-channel and 1 set for the subamp. Don't skimp here, but no need to spend an arm and a leg. Any RCAs using twisted pair construction should be fine. Next you'll need a main power wire running off the battery. For a pair of any of the amps mentioned above, I recommend a minimum of 4 guage. Don't forget the inline fuse. Fuse size depends on the amp(s). You'll also need someway to connect your power wire to your battery. Use a battery terminal such as these. If you only have side mounts on your battery, you'll need the GM adapter close to the bottom of the page. Yes, you'll need one for the negative post as well. Where ever you add a power wire, add a ground. Run the power wire through the hole behing the PCM. Lemme know when you get that far. It's easy. [img]smile.gif[/img] Then you'll need a distribution block to divide your 4g wire into several smaller wires that your amps can accept. Find a close grounding point to the amps. Sand off all paint and dirt. Ground it. For speaker wire, 16g will be good for the amount of power you plan on running. Yes, even for the subs. No need to splurge on expensive name brand speaker wire. Wire is wire for the most part. Check out knukonceptz for that. It may sound like alot of gear, but most can be bought all in one 2 amp wiring kit. Some even include the distribution block. Check knukonceptz and ebay. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Also, this is a damn good deal. I don't know if I'd trust those RCAs, but for $13 you can't go wrong. And some very cheap auctions end with no bids. Check this one out.

[ December 03, 2003: Message edited by: 96firebird311 ]</p>

[staticpike]

Thanks for the recommendations 96firebird311. Here's whats on my list -

Pioneer DEH-P-8500MP
JBL P80.4
Kicker K400.1
Elemental Designs e10K.44
and installation hardware...

Now on the istallation, I'm trying to clarify -

1) Why do I need a negative post? I thought all power samples would be directed to ground afterwards?

2) You recommended 4g from the battery to the dist box, would I continue using 4g from the dist block to the amps(2) or slack it down to 8g?

3) When routing power it's Battery - Fuse - Dist Block - Amp (Is my fuse in the right place is it after the D Block with one per amp?

4) Without the amps (stock config), the radio powers any mounted speaker with a regular twisted pair. By powering the mounted speakers with amp (which is being fed by the set of RCA's) what do I do with common twisted pair of speaker wires still coming off the back of the head unit? - Cut them off and tape them up?

5) One of the two speaker sets I have already purchased, has a maximum of 30W RMS & 150W Peak. The JBL P80.4 is putting out 40Wx4 - how are those speakers going to handle that extra 10W?

Also you asked why not put the stealth box on the otherside of the trunk? - I'm mounting the battery on the drivers side, relocating the spare tire/jack to where the back seat used to be, and installing my "hidden" N2O bottle where the jack & tire used to be.

Thanks again for all your help!

[ December 03, 2003: Message edited by: staticpike ]</p>

[dmiller_2005]

get a mtx thunderform! I love mine, check out my site to see some pictures!

[96firebird311]

Before I start on the questions.... are you sure you want to have unmatched brand names on your amps? Of course, it makes no difference. It's just a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. ;) Gotta have matching amps. [img]smile.gif[/img]

1) What do you mean by all power samples would be directed to ground afterwards? Ground wire is as equally important as the power wire. They are one in the same. If you upgrade or add a power wire, you need to upgrade or add a ground. That's why all amp kits come with like 2ft. of ground wire.

2)The KX400.1 requires 4g power and ground. The p80.4 can accept 4g or 8g.

3)Yes. The fuse goes under the hood, as close to the battery as possible. Many d-blocks also have a fuse on each of the outputs.

4) I think maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I don't know what you mean by the stock head unit powering all the speakers with twisted pair. I think you are talking about the regular stock speaker wires. With you new setup, you will not use the speaker outputs at all. Just the RCAs. Leave the speaker wire attached. It will not come stripped from the factory so you shouldn't have to tape them up or anything.

5) Just make sure you set the gains properly and you should have no problems. Lemme know when you need to set the gains.

Lemme know if you have anymore questions!

[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: 96firebird311 ]</p>