turbo boost vs super boost (not a turbo vs. super)

[Ike]

[img]graemlins/stickpoke.gif[/img] You can't stop, can you? ;) [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ike:
Wouldn't exhaust flow increase with rp? And how is that different than load?

I don't know how to go about explaining the difference (without saying "it just does"), so you try! ;) <hr></blockquote>

No, exhaust flow depends on how much gas you blow up per second. If there is no load on the engine, you can reach high rpm with little throttle. Alternatively, under load it takes more gas blowing up in the cylinders to spin the crank.

[Ike]

I completely agree, I just didn't know how to explain it so simply. I was going to say "Load = throttle position - RPM" but I didn't think that would explain it very well.

[Arctc Wolf]

the way the turbo "sees" load is through the throttle blades. at part throttle, the Tb only allows a certain amount of air into the motor, no matter how much lift, duration, or flow the heads and cam will allow. however, as rpm increases, and throttle position remains the same, perhaps some boost will be made, depending on size of turbo, spool characteristics, engine size, valvetrain, ect. This all has to do with the airflow moving past the turbine of the turbo. Part throttle means less airflow, full throttle means max airflow.

What would be neat to see is an engine that runs w/o a throttle body, just sucking in as much air as it can get w/o any kind of restriction. I wonder how bad the car would run?

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Arctc Wolf:
the way the turbo "sees" load is through the throttle blades. at part throttle, the Tb only allows a certain amount of air into the motor, no matter how much lift, duration, or flow the heads and cam will allow. however, as rpm increases, and throttle position remains the same, perhaps some boost will be made, depending on size of turbo, spool characteristics, engine size, valvetrain, ect. This all has to do with the airflow moving past the turbine of the turbo. Part throttle means less airflow, full throttle means max airflow.

What would be neat to see is an engine that runs w/o a throttle body, just sucking in as much air as it can get w/o any kind of restriction. I wonder how bad the car would run?<hr></blockquote>

engine woudl rev to teh sky and blow eventually

[HAZ-Matt]

Unless you make it like the new BMW engines that have no throttle bodies and control throttle through valve lift...

[slomaro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HAZ-Matt:
Unless you make it like the new BMW engines that have no throttle bodies and control throttle through valve lift...<hr></blockquote>

yup

[Mike Mayron]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ike:

Wouldn't exhaust flow increase with rpm? And how is that different than load?

I don't know how to go about explaining the difference (without saying "it just does"), so you try! ;)

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Ike ]<hr></blockquote>

Wow, I've been away for awhile playing w/ turbos from a different american brand and am glad to see all the work being done on the old v6 f-bodies.

Anyways, here is the answer to the question above.

Turbines aren't powered so much by air flow (exhaust gas volume) as they are the temp difference between the hot exhaust from the head and the cool (relativly) exhaust in the, uh, exhuast pipes. PV=nrt (that's right isn't it? it's been awhile) proves that temp, presures and whatnot will try to equilize in a given volume of space but in this case the turbine is in the way and must be spun to allow the heat to transfer.

Enough heat is only created when you put a load on an engine, hence reving the engine in N will not build much, if any boost but crusing up a nice hill will.

Can you say Power on Demand :D

God bless the turbo charger and rudolph diesel [img]graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img]
Mr. Wenkel deserves a shout out too ;)


EDIT: Tiago I wanted to ask you 1 quick thing about your kit and since I know your watching this thread...

What kind of EGTs are you pushing @ 7 and 10 PSI???

BTW I'm going to try and get in on the GP, but will it still be available afterwards if I can't?

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Mike Mayron ]</p>

[Tiago]

We haven't done any EGT tests, I don't have the means to, but they have proven themselves reliable. A/Fs look in the 11.8-12.0 range though at 7 psi.

[Lord_Verminaard]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike Mayron:


God bless the turbo charger and rudolph diesel [img]graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img]
Mr. Wenkel deserves a shout out too ;)

What kind of EGTs are you pushing @ 7 and 10 PSI???

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Mike Mayron ]<hr></blockquote>

Hee hee... leave it to a diesel buff to ask a question about EGT. Pyrometers are almost more important than boost gauges to diesel-heads. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

Also a member of TDI club, for Volkswagen Diesels.....

P.S. Dont forget to shout-out to Phillipe Bozio as well! ;)

[Mike Mayron]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord_Verminaard:

Pyrometers are almost more important than boost gauges to diesel-heads. [img]smile.gif[/img]
<hr></blockquote>

Almost more important!?! I don't even know how much boost my truck is pushing. The poor gauge only goes up to 30psi. I just keep it floored untill the EGTs get to 1300* or it's time to grab another gear.

I feel bad askin now but who is Bozio; The father of the turbo? Sounds familar just can't place his contribution to the automotive world.

P.S. How are the TDI's doing on power and torque now days? Last I checked it seemed development was alittle slow.

[WickEdSix9838]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Well let's think of it like this..... you can spin the pulley of a supercharger with your hand, and your hand generates how much horsepower? I don't think it robs that much off the crank as people make it out to be. <hr></blockquote>
you can spin it with ur hand but ur not making boost, the boost will make it harder to turn...BTW,it takes 500hp to turn the blower on a top fueler,

[Lord_Verminaard]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike Mayron:


Almost more important!?! I don't even know how much boost my truck is pushing. The poor gauge only goes up to 30psi. I just keep it floored untill the EGTs get to 1300* or it's time to grab another gear.

I feel bad askin now but who is Bozio; The father of the turbo? Sounds familar just can't place his contribution to the automotive world.

P.S. How are the TDI's doing on power and torque now days? Last I checked it seemed development was alittle slow.<hr></blockquote>

A little off-topic but what the hell. ;)

Bozio (not sure on spelling there) has developed a lot of aftermarket injector nozzles for various Diesel injectors, most importantly the Bosch dual-stage pop type found on a lot of Bosch rotary-pump Diesels. Just swapping in a set on a TDI engine can give you 30+ hp and 40+ ft/lbs of torque.

Right now, the TDI is limited by it's tiny stock turbo. It's already hard working, and pushing the boost higher makes them grenade frequently. One guy has a TDI with a mechanical pump and hybrid turbo installed in a 90 GTI running 12 seconds, roughly 220 hp and 330 or so ft/lbs, but it's barely a daily driver. Most people are sticking with a chip and injectors and leaving it at that, which is around 170 hp and 250 ft/lbs then they are at the mercy of the stock electronics and turbo. Even then, it makes a quick car that usually cant be beat by anything on the road on quick stoplight to stoplight bursts. But at nearly 50 mpg, who can complain. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

[Mike Mayron]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord_Verminaard:


Right now, the TDI is limited by it's tiny stock turbo. It's already hard working, and pushing the boost higher makes them grenade frequently.

One guy has a TDI with a mechanical pump and hybrid turbo installed in a 90 GTI running 12 seconds, roughly 220 hp and 330 or so ft/lbs, but it's barely a daily driver.

<hr></blockquote>

Sounds nice. What kind of pump do they use stock? For the CTD's, the mech. ones are very reliable but the newer electric ones fail so often that a fuel pressure gauge is just as important as boost.

If the turbo is holding you guys up then it sounds like it's time for some drugs....
Propane that is. It should give you about a 50% increase in milage too. Usually ends up paying for itself in fuel savings. The kits are usually rated at 100hp but I don't know if that would be too much or just not equal to the same power on a smaller diesel. Anyways it'll cool off your EGT nicely aswell.
If you want a kick on top of that you could alway spray a bit of N2O on top of that :D

Diesels are great. The more O2 (that means boost,Propane,Nitrous) you give them the cooler they run and the more fuel you can dump in to make them run hot again [img]graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

[Lord_Verminaard]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike Mayron:


Sounds nice. What kind of pump do they use stock? For the CTD's, the mech. ones are very reliable but the newer electric ones fail so often that a fuel pressure gauge is just as important as boost.

If the turbo is holding you guys up then it sounds like it's time for some drugs....
Propane that is. <hr></blockquote>


Some are using propane and N20, but you have to remember that little VW TDI's dont have a full frame to attach an exterior tank to. [img]smile.gif[/img] I think there is one company developing a small tank that is made to fit the VW's spare tire area, but it is small and it's also INSIDE the driver's compartment which would make me a little nervous. Either way, USA needs to get off it's "hybrids and hydrogen are the future" and get on a "diesel and biofuels are here NOW and renewable" and be done with it. But I could go on and on for days about that subject. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49