NEW INFO ABOUT BETA KIT!

[Dewey]

Batman,
I'm not a beta tester, and I don't even have close to the cash to being able to afford the S/C when it does come out. But I've been keeping tabs on this project, and I'd like you to know that I'm behind you 100%. Seems to me that there were a lot of people out there w/ $300 burning a hole in their pockets who weren't looking at the big picture. I for one am guilty of impulse buying. That's how I ended up with the Camaro to begin with. However, this needs to be looked at as an investment. And in my experience, investments take time to mature into their full worth. If there are those out there not willing to wait for the end result, they shouldn't have signed on to begin with. There were extenuating circumstances that you had no control over, nor did Bill, and people need to understand that, rather than taking their ball and going home. This is an EXPERIMENT folks, and there are going to be failures before the sucess. There, that's all I'll say. I've got your back B-Man.

[BATMAN]

First of I am not refuting anything. How is it refuting when you are clarifying what you meant in a post?

ITs so hard to make a comprehensible post sometimes because its completely different when you are writing something than when you are saying something. I wrote as if i was talking and I should have posted with a little bit better grammar then i wouldn't be in this mess. I should have used quotes in my original post so you all understood that what i said was a deadline to BILL not to you guys. I posted what i said to BILL... it was not directed to you guys. I TOLD HIM...that if he didn't work on my car and get it done by the 25th then i would pull the project and ask that he refund the testers. I was just trying to get him to commit more time to the project and get him to get it done quicker. I believe he made an honest effort to get it done...BUT the frickin Intercooler would not fit under. Yes, there is a way to make it fit, but then it won't get any air flow so what is the point in doing that? So he is having one custom made. THAT TAKES TIME... so he missed the deadline...but he had a ligitimate reason for missing it.I appologize for not posting clear enough and with better grammer. i am also sorry for getting your hopes up for a refund of the deposit. But no refunds will be given unless a kit is not made and there was no deadline posted on the reciept because we knew that there was always a chance that it was going to take longer than expected. Even in the original posts, i said that it was only an eta...not a definate timeline. You all knew that going into this.

I think there are a couple of issues here:

a) patience- We all -including me- need patience. Developement takes time. IF you go to GM and ask them how long it took them to come up with the design for the Roots blower with the GTP, i am sure they won't tell you it was done in one week with only one engineer. IT probably took a team of engineers, who designed, redesigned, and designed agian, then tested, tuned, redesign based on testing, and tested again. I am also sure they missed deadlines that GM put on their backs. BUT THAT is expected. Here we are working with one engineer to make a kit that is custom made for your engine? and you want him to do it ASAP? Come on, lets be a little realistic. Have any of you seen the blower kit that he made for the S10s? Have you gone to the boards and asked about Bill's kits? If you haven't, maybe you should before you start bashing someone for their lack of interest in developing a kit for us. Any of the S10 boards will tell you that Bill's kit took almost a year to design till it was ready for the public AND they will tell you that the kit is worth every cent. When we started this thing out, Bill felt that this time round it wouldn't take so long because he had learned a lot from his previous kit, however above and beyond his previous kit, he ran into some new challenges with my car....thus the delay. Please be patient


b) a lack of planning- I didn't plan for the kit to take this long, and some of you didn't plan on budgeting yourselves to save up the remainder of the money needed for the kit. But you would think that you would be happy it is taking longer than it should have been. IF anything, this is giving you more time to save the money. IF we really want to get technical here, there is no reason why you shouldn't have the money saved up by now...really there should be no excuse? Right? You all talk as if i made you pay for this kit in full? Some of you talk as if when you get a refund its going to solve all your problems. You talk as if your going to get back the whole kit cost of 4000.00? May i remind you that even if you were to get your deposit back, you are only going to get $300.00. back. If you had done what i told you originally, which was to start saving the money and putting it away in an account that you wouldn't touch. You wouldn't be so eager for the refund. You would have the ability to sit back and relax without worry.


c) Commitment- IF anything...i should be the one that should be upset here. When you all gave your deposit, you weren't just giving me a deposit so you could have a Supercharger kit before anyone else. May i remind you that YOU were making a commitment to ME to be a tester... to TEST a kit so it can be endorced by the manufacturer and released to benifit the general public. The $300.00 was a bond between you and me. It said that i would sacrifice my time, money and car for a kit to be made and you would test the kit once it was made. I think i've done more than my share to keep my end of the bargin by not only forking over $6000.00 of my own money but by also by putting the car i've poured $$$ into under the knife as a guinea pig so you all can have a quality kit too. IF there was real honor in that commitment, you would realize that the sacrifice for quality is time and you would still be commited to the bond you made with me. Instead, Now, I am giving my time, my money, and my car, in the middle of a divorce to effort that could be completely vain. By the time its all done,i won't even have half the beta testers i needed to have this kit endorced by ATI. Shouldn't i be the one that should be upset that there is a possiblity that the hard work and money i am putting may go in vain because there was a lack of patience and commitment from you as a tester?


d) Personal problems- I admit, i have mentioned my personal problems in my posts. HOWEVER... i've only used that as an excuse for NOT POSTING as often or ON TIME as i would have liked. I HAVE NEVER used my personal problems as an excuse for a delay in the project. Every time there was a delay, i have told you the reason for it. BUT...now i see ... that my personal reasons are no excuse at all...well then I think it should go both ways... your personal reasons should not be an excuse for backing out of the commitment you made as a beta tester. I've had people e-mail me with many reason's for backing out which i am not going to post here because its no one's business...but they were all personal reasons.


e) A demand for refund-
IF you look at the receipt that was provided to you by Mach Performance, and if you still feel that based on what the receipt says that they have not kept their end of the bargin then feel free to contact MACH PERFORMANCE for a refund.

However I am certain that both I (commiting my money and car) and Mach Performance (commiting time and effort) have done everything in good faith to coninute in keeping our end of the bargin. Basically the bottom line as far as i am concerned is that Bill and I are going to keep our promise and get the kit done as quickly as possible. As said in the reciepts and the orignal posts made back when we started this thing, A refund will only be given if we feel that a kit can not be made.

I am not mad or upset, but i am really disapointed with the behavior and posts being made in this thread. I haven't been worrying as much about the time because I Believed that i was working with mature adults who would be patient and understanding and not impatient kids who scream " i want, i want" when they see candy at Walmart. I now i am afriad to post anything cause i feel that every word i type now is being scruitinized so you all can find a loop hole to get out of the commitment you knowingly made.

[strobhen]

Should have known better than to say anything.

Should have known some of the people (Scott & Silver00 it seems) cannot handle a view other than their own :rolleyes: .

I said it wasn't a personal attack, and that is what I meant. It was my view of the situation.

This post, however, you can take any way you want, I really don't care.

All I see here is several poeple who changed their mind about wanting the supercharger & are trying to work the situation to their advantage so they can get their money back.

You can take that statement however you like as well.

I tried my best to state my opinion in such a way as to not piss anyone off.

But hell, I tried, you know I tried, and you still got on my case. So I don't care anymore. Hate me for having an opinion that contradicts your own, flame me for it too, I really do not care.

But calling me a "dick" or rolling your eyes at me isn't going to get you one step closer to convincing me or anyone else that may share my opinions (are there any out there? I don't know) that you deserve your money back.

THERE is the personal attack you two seemed to want so badly. Happy now?

Batman posted at the same time as me, and I must say, I agree with every single word he said.

Edit: I had said earlier in the post Scott & Dewey, I meant Scott & Silver00, sorry Dewey, not a word of that applies to you.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: strobhen ]</p>

[Silver00]

we all know you're just mad because your car is slow Strobhen - don't take your frustrations out on us please.

Silver00

[Silver00]

oh and also to Batman. you commented on how we think we're getting so much money back, like the full amt of 4,000.00 when in reality we're only complaining about 300.00 which is so small.
If that's such a small piece of a cake, then fork over 300.00 - I'll return it to ya in a yr and let me know how you miss it. Exactly. Don't want to do it do ya?

[scottblack]

:eek: OWNED! :eek:

I still don't see where all the other beta guys are. Hell if I'd put down money for it then I'd be in here backing ya'll up.

FWIW, MTI is nowhere near a "small performance shop" that would do a "hack job." I am guessing that you have not heard of them, because if you had, you'd be slapping yourself for saying that. Moot point. My point still stands. Strobhen I have no beef with you, if you'd like to discuss it feel free to email/IM me.

Scott

[Dewey]

Strobhen....I pretty much agreed and reinforced your post. Just an FYI. So don't drag my name through the mud.

Saw your correction, Thanks Strobhen.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Dewey ]</p>

[strobhen]

Read the end of my last post, it was a typo.

Truely sorry about that. You are the last person I wanted to direct any of that to. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[imported_admin]

A few notes...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BATMAN:
Looks like the 3 core intercooler is NOT going to fit...well let me refrase that... it can fit but its NOT going to get the airflow that it deserves...infact there is no point in putting one there the way it is.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't been paying attention to the Beta kit much lately but from what I gather you're still using the ATI high output 3-core air-to-air intercooler, right? The same one that I have? Who told you it wouldn't get enough airflow by being mounted under the radiator? There's a scoop that deflects air to it, works fine. You saw mine, where we had cut the holes to allow for air to pass through rather than being deflected up by the air dam. (This was all per ATI's instructions.) This is the same location that every F-Body air-to-air intercooler that I've seen uses... third gens, fourth gens... I've had no problems with airflow in the 3 years I've had it, nor have I ever heard of this problem. I ran boost all the way up to 12 pounds with no detonation when I had stock internals. ("Dipstick incident" aside, that had nothing to do with detonation or intercooling.)

Whose idea was it to fabricate a new intercooler for a new location? LT1 or V6, it doesn't matter what engine you have, the engine bay layout is the same as far as airflow past it goes. ATI sells every other intercooled kit with the intercooler under the radiator, why is the shop telling you all of a sudden it won't work on yours?

NBMA4V6--your entire post is unrealistic. Okay, so what, it took Tiago's shop a week to install his setup. In the article about the Vector 3.8 kit ( http://media.firebirdv6.com/vectorsupercharger.html ) it says the install takes a few hours. Great, so some shops can get things done very quickly. For the rest of us it takes time. One of the reasons my setup took so long to install (2 weeks) and to tune (2 years) was because I didn't have a magazine journalist documenting everything at the shop (thereby putting a fire up their butts), and my shops had other customers waiting. High performance gets the short end of the stick at automotive shops--deal with it. I've dealt with PLENTY of morons who don't give a damn about my car before... and sure, in a perfect world, I would love to say "fine, screw you then, I'll take my custom setup to a different shop". But in reality it's never that easy and you are forced to put up with their BS. If you didn't, nothing would ever get done. In fact, there are several board members who ended up throwing in the towel and buying V8s rather than deal with the junk that V6 owners have to deal with at shops. If it was easy there would be more people than Ryan and myself doing it...

Finding a shop that is willing to do any custom work is difficult, at best. Finding a shop that will work with you within a reasonable budget is near impossible. BATMAN had the good fortune of finding a shop that is doing a quality job. Okay, it's taking time... so be it. What do you expect him to do, just tell them where to stick it and then spend another 4 months trying to find a shop that's dumb enough to work on a 3.8? There's a reason no one likes to work on our cars... they're a nightmare. Most high performance shops are used to nice old 70's boats, not the sardine cans we call an engine bay. There's a reason Superchips, Hypertech, and Jet--THREE COMPANIES who specialize in tuning cars, gave up on the 3.8's computer.

Yelling and screaming at BATMAN is not going to accomplish anything. Whining about a refund is not going to accomplish anything. Shops require a minimum number of orders in order to make their work profitable. Do you think they are doing all this just to make BATMAN's car faster? :rolleyes: They're in it for the MONEY. If one person cancels then the entire project cancels. Ryan was very clear a long time ago that this project would take time and patience, and he said don't sign up if you're not in it for the long haul.

Give it a rest. You whining is not making his life any easier. If you expect him to yell at them to hurry up then they'll just do a shoddy job instead.

[Silver3800V6FBodyKY]

I would definately say that Scott is right about this.

BATMAN, you told the Beta testers that if the kit hadn't been completed by the 25th of October, refunds would be given. No matter who you were talking to, Bill, or the Beta testers, you still said it and it doesn't appear that you are following through with your word. It sounds like you were lying to Bill trying to get him to work harder on this, that's not ethical.

When you stated that refunds would be given on the 25th if the kits wern't completed, you overruled everything you'd said before about
refunds. The ethical thing to do in this situation is give refunds to the beta testers, and cut your losses.

I am glad that I chose not to become a Beta tester. I would have long ago attempted to sale my position when I learned that the original Beta release date was postponed. It was a sign of things to come.

Should you decide to finish the kit after you return the Beta tester's their money, good luck. Afterall, Coca Cola didn't come to me and ask for money to start researching and making Sprite. They took a risk, which is what business is all about. I drink Sprite now that it's been produced. And Coca Cola has made lots of money selling Sprite. The spirit of business is not to use other's money to develop a product, it's too comforting and easy. Using your own money, or investor's, not consumer's, is incentive for success.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Silver3800V6FBodyKY ]</p>

[ravenp]

A non-beta tester sticking up for Ryan.

You all agreed to something. Unless the contract was re-worded in writing between vendor(Ryan) and purchaser(you), the contract remains.

None of you ever agreed with Batman on an Oct 25th deadline.

Therefore, give him a break. He's stretching himself far too thin to make our cars faster. We all owe him a lot, not just when it's done, but now.

Let's offer encouragement, support and praise. Rise above the bickering... you're only looking like fools. If you want out, sell your spot. That's the only legally binding recourse you have.

Good luck Ryan. Why dont' some of the content spot holders voice their opinions? Support the one who is going to give you so much.

[pgriffith]

I dont know why all you think the refund comes from BATMAN because it DOES NOT. IF you want a refund take it up with Bill.

But I think your all wrong for wanting a refund. YOu should keep it because you committed to it.

[Silver00]

do the content ones exist? so far I am one of the only ones voicing his opinion. could it be because I have balls of steel. I figured happy beta testers would have already jumped in and bowed down to Ryan, however no one has chimed in yet.....and this topic has been posted for countless days....

still waiting......

[imported_admin]

Everyone:
I'm glad BATMAN is the one doing the tuning, because apparently the people who are his beta testers are illiterate morons who would never be able to pull off the project in the first place. CAN YOU PEOPLE READ???

From Batman:
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
I haven't been bugging him because i basically said that we have all been waiting a long time and my car has to be done by OCT 25th..COMPLETELY DONE... that means all alpha testing and tuning DONE.
OR... I am pulling the project and i will cut my losses and he would have to refund all of you guys and i would get my money back too.<hr></blockquote>

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD THE SHOP. HE DID NOT SAY THIS TO YOU. WHAT HE TELLS THE SHOP IS NOT LEGALLY BINDING TO YOU.

He could very well have been outright lying to the shop. I've been forced to do that many times to put a fire up their butts to start working. When he said he would cancel and refunds would be due, he was threatening the shop--not making any sort of promises to you. Read it again, slowly, and try, just try, to comprehend the difference. :mad:

The creation of this kit would never have happened if this board had never existed. Don't say "someone would have done it on another board", because the reason it all started was when I drove to Michigan to show Ryan my setup and they blueprinted the design and started from there. There's a reason the kit was originally nicknamed "Procharger 2.0". As FV6 is involved in this, and whiney brat threads are bad for our site and bad for business, this thread is now being locked. If anyone wants to whine and complain about refunds that are legally not due, please take it up with Ryan via private e-mail. This forum is not your personal "bash Ryan" forum. Let me repeat that for the people who can't read:

ANY FURTHER COMPLAINT POSTS REGARDING ANY REFUNDS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. MEMBERS POSTING COMPLAINTS REGARDING REFUNDS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY BANNED FOR ONE WEEK. IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE HARASSING RYAN ABOUT THIS, PLEASE DO SO VIA PRIVATE E-MAIL.

Enough is enough. :mad: