guaging interest in yet another turbo kit.

[navyblue2000]

okay everyone, here's how it goes.
I've done my homework, and from the way it seems, everyone is using a different turbo and making a 'universal' turbo kit, where basically you have to get your own, then do modifications to make the kit fit.
I don't like that idea.
Here's what I'm guaging interest for. If this is do-able, and I hope it is...I want to make a STANDARDIZED turbocharger kit. This will obviously include wastegate, bov, all piping, manifolds, and intercooler (however, you wouldn't HAVE to get an intercooler, but there will be different pipe if you don't want it). My issue that I'm trying to address is the overall SIZE of the turbo, and the way it fits in the engine bay. I rayjay, IHI, KK&K, and garrett turbo, although similar in size, trim, and A/R, are ALL different physical sizes, and have different fittings and flanges. I would like to to a standardized one, where you would buy a kit, turbo included. obviously this will cost a tad more, but you could specify if you wanted new or reman'd. I've narrowed it down to garrett airresearch brand, in either the T3, T304E, or just a T4. If you guys had your say, which turbo would you use, of those three? If I can guage enough interest in this, and begin my own kit, using the one that the members on this board decide...once it's finished, if I can work the bugs out on it...who would be intersted in this kit?
i can safely say it would cost No MORE than 3400 dollars. included would be the turbocharger, manifolds, wastegate (unless built in to turbo), blow off valve, piping to the cat, intercooler if specified, and all fittings/bolts therein.

[HAZ-Matt]

The compressor side should be a T4.

Maybe use a T3 turbine with it... as in T3/T4 hybrid. T3 compressor is too small in IMHO, but I guess if you were only gonna run low boost it would be acceptable.

EDIT: I didn't address anything else in the post...

Get a turbo with an internal wastegate. Internal wastegates are fine for street cars.

Intercooled is the only way to go, even if you only pull off a small intercooler.

I'd add an oil cooler to that kit.

Tuning? Need to add autotap and MAFT+ at least. Maybe not add, I suppose the buyers could get that on their own.

What are you doing about fuel pressure/delivery? Relying on the stock fuel system?

I'd want a boost guage at least... I guess the buyer could get that himself as well.

You could make a substantially cheaper kit running off of the stock manifolds. And as I type this I know that there will be at least 5 guys that will say that the stock manifolds are unacceptable. But for a mild street car, they are fine. And this leads me into the last topic..

What is the purpose of this kit? A basic kit to get people turboed, or is it supposed to allow growth into a full racecar system? This question has a lot to do with my last point. It should probably stay basic, unless you want to be able to make more profit. Personally, if you are selling this kit, it is up to you, and I won't give you any flak for the direction you want to take (some others may not be so kind). Like I said, if it is basic, I don't suppose you really need to sell the guages, or tuning, but then again if it is going to be basic, you might as well only sell the piping and the brakets and allow people to find their own turbos, intercoolers, BOV, etc. off of ebay or wherever. Maybe even offer just the pipe, or an all out kit so that you can appeal to everyone.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[mike24]

Said it was ill say it again im extremely interested in any turbo kit for my firebird

[navyblue2000]

I'm looking at something that yes, will get you turbo'd, but something more than basic.
a guage pod could be included too, maft+ and what not for a touch more...basically whatever the buyer wants, can be added in. I just don't want to do the piping, someone buy their own turbo and have a lot of fitment issues, come back and say 'well this turbo kit is crap'

[navyblue2000]

boost controller as well...the t3/t4 hybrid is most likely the best idea, because it can handle low boost on stock fuel system, (8lbs intercooled), or if you wanted to upgrade the fuel system, forged internals, whatever, it could handle as much as 20 psi.
a FMU would also be included in the kit.

[Only4U]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by navyblue2000:
okay everyone, here's how it goes.
I've done my homework, and from the way it seems, everyone is using a different turbo and making a 'universal' turbo kit, where basically you have to get your own, then do modifications to make the kit fit.
I don't like that idea.
Here's what I'm guaging interest for. If this is do-able, and I hope it is...I want to make a STANDARDIZED turbocharger kit. This will obviously include wastegate, bov, all piping, manifolds, and intercooler (however, you wouldn't HAVE to get an intercooler, but there will be different pipe if you don't want it). My issue that I'm trying to address is the overall SIZE of the turbo, and the way it fits in the engine bay. I rayjay, IHI, KK&K, and garrett turbo, although similar in size, trim, and A/R, are ALL different physical sizes, and have different fittings and flanges. I would like to to a standardized one, where you would buy a kit, turbo included. obviously this will cost a tad more, but you could specify if you wanted new or reman'd. I've narrowed it down to garrett airresearch brand, in either the T3, T304E, or just a T4. If you guys had your say, which turbo would you use, of those three? If I can guage enough interest in this, and begin my own kit, using the one that the members on this board decide...once it's finished, if I can work the bugs out on it...who would be intersted in this kit?
i can safely say it would cost No MORE than 3400 dollars. included would be the turbocharger, manifolds, wastegate (unless built in to turbo), blow off valve, piping to the cat, intercooler if specified, and all fittings/bolts therein.<hr></blockquote>

matt and i have done more than enough of our homework and we are well convinced we could push 6 psi SAFELY for under $1200.

labor is where it gets expensive though. we could see 1 grand, maybe 2 in labor though, so i think $3400 is definetely overshooting it.

the only problem is tuning. people don't want maft+ and autotap. they want that **** to be already programmed when the turbo gets put on, they don't want to do it manually.

i think a 10 psi "kit" is out of the question unless you can figure something out with tuning. and no, i don't think zoomer's programming will fix it right either.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Only4U ]</p>

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by navyblue2000:
I just don't want to do the piping, someone buy their own turbo and have a lot of fitment issues, come back and say 'well this turbo kit is crap'<hr></blockquote>

Hmm, originally I missed the real meaning of your sentence, but then I caught myself. If you specify that it is made fro say a T3/T4 it should work. I wasn't talking about someone buying the kit expecting to bolt a T70 up to it ;) I was merely pointing out that some might prefer buying a used turbo (of the same model the kit is designed for) off ebay.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>matt and i have done more than enough of our homework and we are well convinced we could push 6 psi SAFELY for under $1200. <hr></blockquote>

EDIT: Safe is a relative term ;) But yes, that cost is feasable, but not necessarilly for a mass produced kit. Honestly I don't know what a "fair" price would be if we sold it.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[navyblue2000]

evan-
out of all used parts, YES, you could get 6 psi no problem.
but people are going to want boost controllers, fuel management units, NEW turbocharger (600 alone), new pipes (no reused cut/weld)...
so yes, you could easily do that. Heck that was my original plan. i have a 120 dollar turbo sitting right here. i mean, it's not HARD to go fast for cheap. but a mass produced KIT would need to be all new...for reliability's and reputations' sake.

[Only4U]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by navyblue2000:
evan-
out of all used parts, YES, you could get 6 psi no problem.
but people are going to want boost controllers, fuel management units, NEW turbocharger (600 alone), new pipes (no reused cut/weld)...
so yes, you could easily do that. Heck that was my original plan. i have a 120 dollar turbo sitting right here. i mean, it's not HARD to go fast for cheap. but a mass produced KIT would need to be all new...for reliability's and reputations' sake.<hr></blockquote>

drew, why don't you come down to austin, bring your turbo shiz, and let's hit this up and put it out on the market. matt's a freaking genious lol, i've learned my share, and tiago isn't far away lol. but the two of us, as WELL as a couple other guys that don't know quite as much on the science of turbo's are quite ready to take on this project, so i think it'd be awesome if you wanted to help out or vice versa.

dunno, maybe my suggestion is stupid and out of the question. if you wanna talk, i'm on AIM (schorret) and matt (capn233).

[HAZ-Matt]

The only used parts were the T3/T4 hybrid, the intercooler, and the BOV.

Are we saying a new T3/T4 is only $600? I guess I am shopping at the wrong place [img]smile.gif[/img]

Like I said, depends on what you are trying to do. With all the bells and whistles, $3400 might be about right. I'm not even going to say anything about that. But, I do think you may want to consider selling a substantially "decontented" kit for someone who just wanted to get his feet wet. You can always add on later.

EDIT: If you want to get into specifics, we can talk over AIM, or else I might reveal too much "classified" information. ;)

One thing I forgot to add...

Whichever way you want to go with the kit, as long as it is built and it works it would be very good for the 3.8L Firebird/Camaro community.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[Red96CamaroRS]

im making my own with my buddy who is a turbo genius. I am gonna get a new Garret Hybrid T3/T4 and BOV. Everything else, mabye not the IC and the piping will be used. Im looking at total costs above 1000. I just hate how going fast costs soo much.

[Gmoney]

so why can't u jsut make htis for teh 3.4 we don't have anything go get a supercharger or soemthing help us out a little.

[scottblack]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gmoney:
so why can't u jsut make htis for teh 3.4 we don't have anything go get a supercharger or soemthing help us out a little.<hr></blockquote>

Why can't you make something on your own? Or ask Tiago to make you one? He plans on selling a kit for 3.4 guys in awhile...

Scott

[navyblue2000]

Also, maybe you guys didn't read my post thoroughly. You saw the price tag and jumped. notice i said, NO MORE THAN 3400. That's topping out price on everything. A conservative estimate, I can work down from there. I've had time to think about it, this is what I'd Need.
T3/T4 Hybrid Turbo with internal wastegate
at least 2 core, would like 3 core intercooler
Blowoff Valve
Fuel Management unit (those normally aren't very cheap)
Oil cooler
mini AFC to be able to control air/fuel
Gages (A/F and oil temp, or whatever one wanted as a second gage)
Manual Boost controller (I dont like the idea of just relying on a wastegate by itself)
Machine work for 2 exhaust connection to heads
about 6 feet of 1-7/8" mandrel bent for manifolds, probably 4 ft or so of 2.5" for the Y pipe, and 3" (quite a bit) for exhaust routing, intercooler/intake manifold piping.
Not to mention quite a bit of welding and welding supplies, flanges and gaskets, oil return lines...
ALL NEW (which this kit would be) wouldn't be cheap. Even if you used your own turbo and/or intercooler, it's not gonna be cheap.
i said 3400, I meant the highest possible cost. could cost as little as 2000.
I AM NOT OUT TO MAKE A PROFIT ON THIS
I want to help the community by making a kit that everyone can use without having to engineer their own, or mod someone else's idea. Is there something so wrong with that?

[HAZ-Matt]

What will the exhaust configuration be? Looks like you are set on building new manifolds. I suppose your y-pipe will go to the turbo. After that will it simply go to a downpipe, or will it be taken to the cat, muffler, etc?

Seems like you will be able to provide the fuel, but what boost levels are going to be safe with this setup, and what will control the timing? Is the stock computer adequate for whatever boost levels you will recommend running?